Free will & destiny

[Menotu]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Within Christianity, which exists?
Some say everyone has free will, but looking back at the biblical stories, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple; someone had to betray Jesus.
Where those people acting on free will, or were they forced to play their part in the grand plan?
If they had free will, surely God knew what they would do and had to plan accordingly?
Or does his plan supersede all human understanding?
And if that's the case, how are we to understand anything about him?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]


It is a long question and I dont think Adstar is speaking about predestination but of foreknowledge which isn't the same thing. Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good. I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

JW

Is what you explained your own view, or is it the view of someone else?

On reflection, it appears you are explaining what may be Adstar's view.

If so, well done!

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]


It is a long question and I dont think Adstar is speaking about predestination but of foreknowledge which isn't the same thing. Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good. I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

JW

So many don't know the difference between foreknowledge and being predestined. I guess the right short question would be: When does the Almighty know when a wicked act was going to be carried out?

[2timothy316]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

That is a long question!

Sorry, but I cannot understand what you are asking in the second part (from "before" onwards).

Could you please make it more clear or put it another way.

Thanks.

When does God know when a specific person is going to do a wicked act, before their existence or after coming into existence?

[Checkpoint]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

That is a long question!

Sorry, but I cannot understand what you are asking in the second part (from "before" onwards).

Could you please make it more clear or put it another way.

Thanks.

When does God know when a specific person is going to do a wicked act, before their existence or after coming into existence?

If God does know that, it could be either.

Why, and/or in what way, does it matter when God knows?

[PinSeeker]

predestination (and) foreknowledge (are not) the same thing.

Agree 100% with at least this much. God predestines according to His foreknowledge, which is exactly what Paul says in Romans 8:29:

• "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..."

Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good.

Well, it's a good question for all of us.

I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

First off, everybody is "from the predestination camp" -- Christians, anyway -- whether they think they are or not. Predestination is clearly taught in the Bible; that much is not a debate among Christians. The nature of that predestination, what it really is and what it really means, is what is disputed.

And second, a few points:

• 1. Thank you for bringing up Paul's use of the word 'foreknowledge' in Romans 8:29. This is very important to understand correctly. The common meaning of 'to foreknow' is to know something beforehand, in advance of its happening, so many believe God foresees who will believe, and that this foreknowledge is the basis of His predestination. But this cannot be right, for at least two reasons:
  
  • A. In this sense God foreknows everybody and everything, whereas Paul is referring to a particular group ("...those whom He foreknew...").
    
    B. If God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, and this is contrary to Paul's whole emphasis, here, namely God's free initiative of grace.
  Rather, 'to know' as it is used here expresses much more than mere intellectual cognition; it denotes a personal relationship of care and affection. Thus, when God 'knows' people, He watches over them, and cares for them; in light of this Biblical usage, 'know' is used in a sense practically synonymous with "love," so "whom He foreknew" is therefore virtually equivalent to "whom He foreloved." So 'foreknowledge' is a sovereign, distinguishing love. This fits hand in hand with Moses' great statement that "The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples... But it was because the LORD loved you..."
  
  2. The verb 'predistined' translates from the Greek 'proorizo,' which means to decide upon beforehand, as in Acts 4:28 ("They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen"). Clearly, a decision is involved in the process of becoming a Christian, but it is God's decision before it can be ours... and this is not to deny that we decided for Christ, and freely, but to affirm that we did so only because He had first decided on us. This is precisely what John says in 1 John 4:19 (""We love because He first loved us.); the emphasis is on God's gracious, sovereign decision or choice.
  
  I cited Dr. J.I. Packer before, and will again here, this time in his great work "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God." He points out that in fact all Christian people believe in God's sovereignty in salvation, even if they deny it:
  
  "Two facts show this. In the first place, you give God thanks for your conversion. Now why do you do that? Because you know in your heart that God was entirely responsible for it. You did not save yourself by any stretch; He saved you... There is a second way in which you acknowledge that God is sovereign in salvation. You pray for the conversion of others... You ask God to work in them everything necessary for their salvation... On our feet we may have arguments about it, but on our knees we are all agreed."
  
  3. The doctrine of divine predestination promotes humility, not arrogance. It promotes assurance, not apprehension. It promotes responsibility, not apathy; holiness and not complacency; mission, not privilege.
  
  4. The concept of God's justice must be mentioned. God, indisputably, would have been perfectly just to have left us all destined for destruction; that's what we all -- as Adam's descendants -- fully deserve. But yet God, in His mercy and love, chose to save some. He leaves others to themselves, giving them exactly what they want, as they remain in rebellion from Him. He loves them, too, just not in the same sovereign, distinguishing way as others. God is guilty of no evil, but rather tolerant of it for a time, "enduring with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22). Even so, He works everything -- everything -- together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Finally, though -- and wholly lovingly -- He gives the wicked/evil up to themselves in the end. God knows (is guilty of) no evil. God is love, as John later says, but His love and His justice stand side by side, and neither is compromised by the other.

Grace and peace to all.

[myth-one.com]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

I can't see why not.

DESTINY

The events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

Biblically, if one decides to defy the creator one is destined for everlasting death (non-existence).

That is not an example of destiny!

Destiny: a predetermined course.

The person was not born destined for everlasting death.

He chose it, as you quoted in the following verse:

I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live[/color]

Things which are destined are things which we have no control over! Something in which we have no choice.

Here are some examples:

We had no choice in our birth, gender, race, or our location of birth.

Likewise, we are all going to die. It is destined that all mankind will die once.

Thus, free will and destiny do coexist.

But things which are destined are rare.

[2timothy316]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

That is a long question!

Sorry, but I cannot understand what you are asking in the second part (from "before" onwards).

Could you please make it more clear or put it another way.

Thanks.

When does God know when a specific person is going to do a wicked act, before their existence or after coming into existence?

If God does know that, it could be either.

Why, and/or in what way, does it matter when God knows?

If it is known before the person exists, then the incoming wicked act only exists in God's thoughts. Do wicked thoughts begin in God's mind?

[Adstar]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

Well it is very hard to explain this using Human language.. All i can use is an analogy.. But think of it this way.. All the things that where ever going to happen in the universe had in a way already happened at the moment of creation of this universe, from Gods Point of View outside the Universe... So the universe and it's history is like a picture.. that can be viewed by God in it's totality at one time.. But for us inside this picture we go from one pixel to the next.. Day by day and each new pixel is revealed to us one at a time..

[Adstar]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]


It is a long question and I dont think Adstar is speaking about predestination but of foreknowledge which isn't the same thing. Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good. I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

JW

Yes i am talking about foreknowledge.. which allows God to predestination whom will be transformed into sharing the eternal likeness of Jesus.. The foreknowledge horse pulls the Predestined carriage.. But for Calvinists who do believe in their interpretation of predestination they believe that God created people with no real free will.. They believe God created some to be saved by God forcing pre-programing them to believe and have faith in His Atonement and that God pre-programed others to have no other option but to reject Gods will and thus be cast into the eternal lake of fire....

Of course i find the Calvinist interpretation of scripture to be incredibly offensive to the character of God.. It turns God into some kind of mega psychopath..

[Adstar]

[Replying to post 13 by 2timothy316]

At the moment He created the universe.. He foreknows it all.. The future path of every proton, election and neutron.. He knew every blade of grass that was ever going to grow and how long it would grow.. He foreknew every moment of every human individuals entire life..

And for His foreknowledge he placed the names of all that would be redeemed in his book of life.. As the Bible says "'from the foundation of the world""

(Revelation 17:8) "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

(Ephesians 1:4-5) "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: {5} Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"