Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[Donray]

Why is everyone trying to argue with "JehovahsWitness" since they belong to the only true religion.

No one has disagreed with JW being the only true religion and the rest of you religious better get bandwagon and join and believe.

I think that's because everyone in this thread has been very respectful of others beliefs. While we may not always agree, we repect people's right to believe as they so wish.

Very proud to be a member of this forum because even if we disagree that is done with repectful address and in this sub-forum, bible based reasoning.


JW

I got a problem with religious people that believe to be "SAVED" you must believe as they do and yet respect the rights to others believes.

If you truly believe that your beliefs are right (as you do), you should do everything in your power to tell others they are wrong. Otherwise you a half a$$ believer.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 90 by JehovahsWitness]

Firstly I do believe the request was for scriptures proving there were two groups with two eventualities (one for heaven and one for earth). Regarding which of the two are bigger...

Sorry but those Scriptures do not show that there are two groups of believing Christians - some who go to heaven and some who do not. If you really think that's the case can you spell out how they show that some Christians will go to heaven for eternity and other Christians (who genuinely trust Christ) do not.

what kind of size do you believe 144,000 represents and why does Jesus refer to a "little flock" being given the kingdom?

And why did you say ...

dakoski wrote:
I agree partly that the 144,000 is making the point that broad is the road to destruction but narrow is the path to salvation.

And what size would trying to make a point that something is "narrow" correspond to? A "majority" or a "minority"

So your argument is that when Jesus talks about "little flock" he is speaking about a sub-group of Christians that are going to heaven -as opposed to rest who do not?

Personally, I think that's reading your presupposition onto the text - rather than the text clearly teaching that.

What I meant was Christians are a small minority of the world's population. That's why he says:
'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matt 7:13)

When Jesus contrasts two groups I'm not aware ever that he explicitly contrasts those Christians who are going to heaven with those Christians who are not going to heaven. I gave the broad and narrow gates example - the small number is to me clearly those who believe in him as opposed to the large number who don't.

Similarly, Jesus uses the example of the sheep and goats - again contrasting those who believe in him and those who do not. I see nowhere in Scripture that teaches that some Christians go to heaven and some do not.

You didn't respond to Galatians 3 - which shows that the promise of Abraham is for all believers.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 101 by Donray]

Arguably no group does more to preach their beliefs to others. Every Jehovah's Witnesse is an active preacher. We conduct millions of home (indivdual face to face) bible studies, so the last thing one can accuse JWs of is not being committed to spreading their beliefs.



How can I contact Jehovah's Witnesses ?
viewtopic.php?p=1058289#p1058289

Do Jehovahs Witnesses preach informally?
viewtopic.php?p=1094562#p1094562

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , PUBLIC PREACHING and ...BIBLE STUDY PROGRAMS,

[dakoski]

Problem is that Exodus 33:11 doesn't mention any angel.

No, but you agree that sometimes when the bible mentions "God", it isn't actually God its an angel? (see below)

Exodus 3:4, 6 “God called unto him out of the midst of the bush... “
Exodus 3: 2 “the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush�.

And you agree that Jesus or another angel are spoken of as representing Jehovah

I agree there are other passages such as Exodus 3 where the angel (or the sent one) of Jehovah is also called Jehovah.

Then why is it beyond the realms of possibility that Exodus 33:11 could be one of these occassions? Especially as Jehovah had already told Moses he could never see his face. AND in Hebrew "face to face" is an idiomatic expression that doesn't have to be taken literally?

I'll clarify as you misunderstood my response. I agree that Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 says that no one has ever seen the Father.

My point was that Exodus 33:11 makes clear Moses did see another person who the Scripture clearly says is Jehovah. Yes I think this person is Jesus - the title 'Sent One of Jehovah' is very applicable to him since he uses this description of himself constantly in the Gospels.

My point then is that this 'Sent One of Jehovah' is distinct from Jehovah who no one has ever seen - but at the same time is given the name Jehovah.

Your argument is that though this person who speaks face to face with Moses in the burning bush, Abraham and other is called Jehovah throughout the Scriptures - you don't think they are Jehovah.

The problem with your argument is two-fold:
1) As Exodus 33:11 and many other passages like Exodus 3 as you acknowledge makes very clear that this person who speaks face to face with Moses is referred to as Jehovah. Yet clearly he is distinct from the person Jehovah described in Exodus 33:20.

There's no indication that this person isn't really Jehovah - the Scripture says the opposite. There is no warrant for such an interpretation you refuse to call a person Jehovah - who the Scripture clearly does.

2) Isaiah 42:8 clearly says
"I am Jehovah; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols."

Why then is Jehovah's name being given to one who is not Jehovah - is that not idolatory?

[JehovahsWitness]

My point was that Exodus 33:11 makes clear Moses did see another person who the Scripture clearly says is Jehovah. Yes I think this person is Jesus

Oh well in that case I agree. We believe that when the scripture says Moses spoke "face to face" with Jehovah it means he was in communication with God through his representative, in this case probably "The Word" ie Jesus.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

What I meant was Christians are a small minority of the world's population.

So we both agree that 144,000 represents a small minority. We just disagree what that small minority is in relation to.

Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.


JW

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

So we both agree that 144,000 represents a small minority. We just disagree what that small minority is in relation to.

Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Thanks for the discussion - its been helpful to understand a little better what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Um, you did not address the comments I made & the questions I asked. I have yet to see your response to my question as to how humans could be physically next to the God who created the sun. Do you concede that a human being would not be able to bear being close to the sun? If a human could not, then how could a human be physically close to the Creator of the sun?

While your opinion of whether a person may be able to see their Creator and live is interesting - I'd rather direct you to Scripture:
'Jehovah spoke to Moses face-to-face,+ just as one man would speak to another man. ' Exodus 33:11 (NWT)

'All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.' John 1:1 (NWT)

John 1:1 is saying that all things (that then also must include the sun) was created by Jesus. Then did not Jesus speak face to face with any humans - quite a few I recall.

Jesus is not God. That no man has seen God is a statement that it stands to reason that if no man has seen God and yet they've seen Jesus, then Jesus cannot be God.

Jesus created everything with his Father before he came to earth as a physical man. He was a powerful SPIRIT person when he was creating. Just as God is a Spirit (John 4:24). When Jesus was on the earth he was a human being in a physical body, therefore people could look at him. God, the Father, has never and will never come to the earth literally. He is still much greater in glory than the sun. He will ALWAYS be greater in glory and greater in energy than the sun and all the billions of stars put together.

[onewithhim]

I've lost count how many times I've asked this:
Show me from Scripture that there are two categories of followers of Jehovah: 1) those who dwell in heaven for all eternity (ie. 144,000) 2) those who dwell on earth for eternity.

I've gone back and checked, I've asked this same question 10 times over 3 hours without a response (well one response that didn't actually answer the question but claimed to). Its fundamental to your position - so why do you refuse to answer it?

I don't know who you are addressing, but I think your question has been answered, if you took the time to read all the posts.

To go over it briefly once more, it can be readily seen that Jesus let his disciples know that they would be ruling with him in heaven, and the apostle Paul wrote in some detail about how they would be changed from physical bodies to spirit bodies, so they could be in heaven.

Matthew 5:11,12: "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven." (KJV)

Matthew 19:28: "And Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you also will sit upon 12 thrones.'" (NASB)


2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us." (NASB)

I Corinthians 15:49-53: "Just as we have borne the image of the earthly, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God....Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." (NASB)


Doesn't it definitely look like Jesus' earliest disciples would be ruling with him in heaven? Otherwise, why would they need to change from a physical body to a spirit body?



Now, on the other side of the coin, Jesus indicated that the earth would be involved in this "regeneration" that he talked about.

"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5, NASB)


This was not a new concept for the faithful. King David had said:

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth....The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein FOREVER." (Psalm 37:9,29, KJV)



So there we have it: TWO hopes for people; one for the group that will rule with Christ in heaven, and one for those who will live on the earth forever.

[onewithhim]

Answer is eternity for both.

So it seems to me you are saying Yes, there will be humans living on this our planet earth for all eternity.

And God got to live in heaven for a while but He too will spend the rest of eternity on the earth (with those humans).

And nobody, not even God gets to live in heaven for all eternity.


JW

I don't understand how anybody could believe such a thing. But I suppose that's what your organization teaches you.

After the 1,000 years, this earth is done with, and God simply makes another 'earth'.

These are the comments that I find really bizarre....

And God got to live in heaven for a while but He too will spend the rest of eternity on the earth (with those humans).

And nobody, not even God gets to live in heaven for all eternity.

What JehovahsWitness was saying was what dakoski believes, not what JehovahsWitness believes. It is insanely ridiculous to say that God will live on this little dust particle (in comparison to the universe) of a planet forever! JW's organization teaches that the earth will remain forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4) and God will be the Sovereign in heaven, as He has always been.

Do you really think that "this earth is done with" after Christ's Thousand-Year Reign? Why would it be? The earth has done nothing wrong, and it's not irredeemable, worthless, worn-out or dead! It can resuscitate itself just fine, with Jesus and his co-rulers guiding humans on earth to take care of the planet in the proper way.