Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[onewithhim]

LAKE OF FIRE:

This expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: "This means the second death, the lake of fire." (Rev.20:14; 21:8) So it symbolizes the death from which no one is resurrected.

It is further evident that this lake of fire is symbolic from the context of references to it in Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. Death cannot, obviously, be hurled or burned. Moreover, the Devil who is an invisible spirit person, is thrown into the lake....and being a spirit he cannot be hurt by literal fire. (Rev.20:10; see also Exodus 3:2 where an angel is in a burning bush & it doesn't affect him.)


("Gehenna" and "the fire prepared for the Devil & his angels" are also symbolic. They mean basically the same thing as "the lake of fire.")

Your point of view is purely JW. I am not alone in believing that it is for purification, the burning up of the beast, the egotistical twin of the spiritual person. The ancients were in awe of the assayers fire--the burning up of impurities and the resulting fine metal that remains. There is a long history of this point of view in the region in that period of history.

How does literally burning up the Beast purify it? And do you believe the Beast is a literal monster that comes out of the literal sea?

Fire can certainly refer to purifying, but in more cases than not, it refers to total destruction.

No, the beast is the animal, the image (of the physical human body). You may like this: Those who worship the beast are worshiping a physical man as God. The Jews did not believe that a man could be God. You know that, of course.

No, fire does not refer to total destruction. You can't read the scriptures in an historical void. As I said, the symbol as it is used refers to the process of metallurgy which was profound to the people of that time and a cottage industry that all were familiar with unlike today. The slag is separated from the iron and cast aside.

It is total destruction of the "twin" (the elder shall be the servant of the younger), leaving the spirit which goes back to God who gave it. The reason that Satan and his angels come as light is due to the fact that all the creatures that God has created are animated by and given life by the spirit which God gave them and those who are "spiritual" can see this light. Thus Satan and his angels are to be cast into the lake of fire but there remains the purified and eternal spirit that God gave his creatures in their creation.
Remember that light is of God and God created it first and he separated the light from the darkness and this was before he created the sun and the moon.

So what is the final lot of Satan and his demons?

Angels are immortal beings unlike humans. Satan is defeated. It appears that it has become commonly believed that Satan will be destroyed and that means death to most.

Who knows?

Catnip, this post of yours is one of the best I've seen. Thank you for being reasonable and agreeable. I'm glad that you apparently see the reasonableness of believing that Satan will be destroyed, and that means death.

I have to disagree on the subject of angels' immortality. They are not immortal, just as humans are not. Point of fact: Satan was created, not as "Satan" but as a good and perfect angel. He exercised his free will and rebelled against his Creator. If he was created immortal, he would not be able to die. He is GOING to die, so that means he (nor the other angels, good or bad) was not created immortal.

I did NOT say it means death. There is in each one of us an immortal part, the light of God, "Let your light shine". The spirit goes back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes

Angels are purely messengers for God and for angels who have no mortal soul, that is all there is.

One thing we must all learn is to forgive and to hope for forgiveness for ourselves and ALL others. If we hope for the destruction of one other, we hope for our own destruction. The measure we mete out is the measure we receive.

If we really got into what I think Satan is, I think Satan is the collective of all of our false selves--that image that we have constructed out of our imaginings, the imagination of our hearts, the image of the beast--and Christ is the collective of the true self, the one Son of God, the immortal spirit of us all. He is the head and we are the Body.

Look over your post again. You said what I thought you said. But now you are disclaiming that statement. I'm sorry, I thought you were agreeing with something I had said. Excuse me.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 does say that the spirit of a person returns to God. Haven't we discussed ad nauseum what "spirit" means? My gosh, we've discussed all the different possibilities, and not one of them is a conscious ethereal copy of the dead person that is able to think on its own. The spirit that "goes back" to God is merely the breath of life that originates with Him in the first place.

The "light" of God is not immortal. This light is the loving witness we give to the world about our God. There is nothing within us that is immortal.

Are you saying that angels are just like robots, only delivering messages for God? That they are not really persons with thoughts and feelings? How do you explain Satan's conversation with Jesus in the wilderness? Was Satan just something evil in Jesus?

[rikuoamero]

"
Paradise on Earth
Doesn't everyone really desire this?"

I don't know if it makes sense to everyone, but in my youth, I read Dune by Frank Herbert, along with the subsequent sequels. Long story short, there is a civilisation on the desert planet Arrakis (or Dune) who picture paradise as being a world where they can walk around in the open, take water whenever they want without a care in the world.
However, the desert environment they live in has shaped them to be the fiercest warriors in the universe.
By the time Book 4 rolls around (God Emperor of Dune), the people (called the Fremen) have ascended to mastery over all other planets and transformed their world into a paradise. However, they lose all the toughness they had had from the desert, becoming 'water-fat'.
What I took from that is to be wary of the idea of a paradise. An inquisitive scientist may picture paradise as being a realm where all scientific questions are answered, but consider this - what if he were to live in that realm? What would he do then?

[onewithhim]

"
Paradise on Earth
Doesn't everyone really desire this?"

I don't know if it makes sense to everyone, but in my youth, I read Dune by Frank Herbert, along with the subsequent sequels. Long story short, there is a civilisation on the desert planet Arrakis (or Dune) who picture paradise as being a world where they can walk around in the open, take water whenever they want without a care in the world.
However, the desert environment they live in has shaped them to be the fiercest warriors in the universe.
By the time Book 4 rolls around (God Emperor of Dune), the people (called the Fremen) have ascended to mastery over all other planets and transformed their world into a paradise. However, they lose all the toughness they had had from the desert, becoming 'water-fat'.
What I took from that is to be wary of the idea of a paradise. An inquisitive scientist may picture paradise as being a realm where all scientific questions are answered, but consider this - what if he were to live in that realm? What would he do then?

Thank you for your thoughts. My thought on that is the Dune books may denigrate the idea of Paradise, but the Bible does not. It promises Paradise on Earth, and people won't be "water-fat." It will truly be a place that people can thoroughly enjoy forever. Did you read my OP?

[onewithhim]

The Apostle John foresaw in vision what lay ahead for Satan ("the great dragon, the original serpent").---Rev.12:9,12. He would be cast out of heaven, "having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time." Christians have good reason to believe that they are living during that "short period of time" and that soon Satan will be put out of commission for a thousand years while Jesus rules in God's Kingdom. (Rev.20:1,2)

During that period, what will be happening on the earth? Jesus himself pointed to the answer. In his illustration of the sheep and the goats (Matt.25:46), he showed what future awaits righteous humans who are like sheep, who cooperate with Jesus' spiritual brothers and do good toward them. Those who are like goats will be cut off forever, but the righteous ones will gain everlasting life.

Jesus promised the thief that was hanging beside him that he would be in Paradise with Him. (Luke 23:43) The man was assured of the prospect of living in Paradise--- a beautiful park, or parklike garden. Logically, those today who prove to be like sheep and who enter "into everlasting life" will also be in that Paradise.

In order for that thief to enjoy life in Paradise, he will have to be raised from the dead. And he will not be alone in experiencing a resurrection. Jesus made clear that "the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out." (John 5:28) Jesus will apply his ransom sacrifice to humans on Earth and lift from them the curse of inherited sin. He and his co-rulers will raise faithful mankind to perfection. Humans will then enjoy the life that God originally purposed for them when he told Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth. Even death will be no more.

[onewithhim]

Jesus will have accomplished all that his Father, Jehovah, asked of him, at the end of the Thousand-Year Reign.

He will hand over the Kingdom to his Father. Paul wrote: "When all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:28)

Jesus said he was "the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6), and he will live up to this throughout eternity, as God's awesome purposes continue to unfold.

[onewithhim]

Will someone tell me why the following thoughts are not interesting and do not inspire joy and hope for the future?


Do you remember that Adam, the first man, sinned? He lost life and Paradise, and all of us die, too, because we are his children. (Romans 5:12; 3:23)

We could get back this perfect life, if another perfect man gave up his life for us, or ransomed us from death. (I Corinthians 15:45; Romans 5:19,21)

Jesus was God's Son. He was a perfect man. He did not sin. (Hebrews 5:9; 7:26)

He allowed himself to be killed by people who did not love God. (Acts 2:23) This was a sacrifice of himself for us. (I Timothy 2:6)

After God raised him up again after three days (Acts 2:24), he went back to heaven (after 50 days). He now asks God to help those who obey God. (Heb.9:24; I John 2:1,2)

Jehovah made Jesus King in heaven. (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 7:13,14; Acts 2:32-36)

He will rule over the whole earth. (Daniel 7:14; Matthew 28:18)

Jesus will do many good things for loyal people (Heb.5:9): No one will be sick anymore (Rev.22:1,2); Everybody will have good things (Isaiah 65:17, 21-23); God remembers everyone who has died & He will use Jesus to bring them back to life again. This is called the resurrection. (John 5:28; 11:25) After all the bad people are gone, nobody will die anymore. Even the wild animals will not be dangerous.(Rev.21:4; Isaiah 65:25; Psalm 37:11,29)

[marco]

Will someone tell me why the following thoughts are not interesting and do not inspire joy and hope for the future?

I am happy to oblige. Let's look at them

(I)
Do you remember that Adam, the first man, sinned? He lost life and Paradise, and all of us die, too, because we are his children. (Romans 5:12; 3:23)

This is not joyful because it speaks of loss and death and unjust punishment of all for one.

(2)
Jesus was God's Son. He was a perfect man. He did not sin. (Hebrews 5:9; 7:26)

He allowed himself to be killed by people who did not love God. (Acts 2:23) This was a sacrifice of himself for us. (I Timothy 2:6)

This is truly awful. He should have been more careful, but there you go; he put himself in harm's way. Is this joyful? The people who had him killed thought he was a blasphemer against the God they adored. Jesus failed to defend himself properly. Again, this is bad news.

(3)

God remembers everyone who has died


That's no big deal considering he instituted death.

(4)

After all the bad people are gone, nobody will die anymore. Even the wild animals will not be dangerous.

Why in this story are there wild animals? And who are these "bad people"? What standards is Jehovah going to use to determine who is bad?

There is nothing to be joyful about in all this unless one is persuaded one is special. Then again, the person who seated himself at the top table thought the same, till he was disabused of his presumption.

[JehovahsWitness]

Will someone tell me why the following thoughts are not interesting and do not inspire joy and hope for the future?

They are interesting to those that love what is good and yearn for relief from suffering for themselves and others. Peace and security is what all people want and are working for believer or not, here on this forum however most people come to argue so whatever you write is likely to get a negative response, if you post the sky is blue someone is likely to object.

It's just the games people play...

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 106 by onewithhim]

Will someone tell me why the following thoughts are not interesting and do not inspire joy and hope for the future?

Do you remember that Adam, the first man, sinned? He lost life and Paradise, and all of us die, too, because we are his children. (Romans 5:12; 3:23)

That doesn't inspire me in any way.
It sounds horrible.

Punish EVERYONE for the "sins" of two people?
Insane, evil, unfair...

Interesting?
Only because so many millions seem to believe in this kind of thing...

It's extremely interesting to me.. but not at all inspiring.

[rikuoamero]

Will someone tell me why the following thoughts are not interesting and do not inspire joy and hope for the future?

They are interesting to those that love what is good and yearn for relief from suffering for themselves and others. Peace and security is what all people want and are working for believer or not, here on this forum however most people come to argue so whatever you write is likely to get a negative response, if you post the sky is blue someone is likely to object.

It's just the games people play...

Please do not suggest that those of us who do not find onewithhim's list of thoughts interesting/inspiring of joy & hope do not love what is good, or that those who are on this forum (hello, you're here too!) are somehow not working for peace and security.