Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 99 by 2timothy316] post away.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 101 by postroad]
I said would you believe it? No or yes.

[Elijah John]

As you refuse to admit that and also now refuse to debate further I now appeal to the moderation team to intervene and make a judgement on the matter

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[postroad]

[Replying to post 102 by 2timothy316] Let death become nothing.

Hebrews 9:26-28New International Version (NIV)

26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

. They were destined to die once and then the judgement. What happens after the judgement? The righteous will experience an eternal existence without possibility of death.

Revelation 21:3-4New International Version (NIV)

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Look! Gods dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

And the unrighteousness also without death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars"they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Ah ha, you think that the second death means instant anaihlation. How can that be concidering that the people had already fulfilled the single death they were destined for? No, this is what the text indicates will happen.

Revelation 14:9-11New International Version (NIV)

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of Gods fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Someone will say, it is only their smoke that will rise forever. As if that makes any sense at all. No the torment is eternal.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And how will all this deathless torment as well as the eternal life in the kingdom be accomplished? God will abolish death and the grave into the lake of fire. Keep in mind they are completely empty after the resurrection.

Revelation 20:13-15New International Version (NIV)

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

.
God gives a preview of this concept before the end.

Revelation 9:1-6New International Version (NIV)

9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 104 by postroad]

So I was just looking for a no or yes. I didn't expect a panic post. I wanted to know if I showed you a proof text that says that death will become nothing would you accept it? Yes or no.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 105 by 2timothy316]
I can read your mind anyway.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6New International Version (NIV)

4 Anyone who is among the living has hope[a]"even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Sure I believe it. I am an agnostic. I do not think that after I die I will ever be restored to a conscience existence. It is Christianity that wants to move past the obvious. So if they refuse to believe this text they might as well move to the completion of the "progressive revealation" and not get off the train before it reaches its final destination.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 105 by 2timothy316]
I can read your mind anyway.

Really?

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6New International Version (NIV)

4 Anyone who is among the living has hope[a]"even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Sure I believe it. I am an agnostic. I do not think that after I die I will ever be restored to a conscience existence. It is Christianity that wants to move past the obvious. So if they refuse to believe this text they might as well move to the completion of the "progressive revealation" and not get off the train before it reaches its final destination.

Not the scripture I had in mind but it's good that you do have at least some faith that there is truth in the Bible. Now if we can just get you to read my mind correctly in how to know when the Bible is not contradicting itself but it is speaking figuratively.

Along with what you know of Ecc 9:5 and that there is nothing after death but a person can be restored from this kind of death. )Acts 24:15) Yet what else could a 2nd death be but annihilation of which there is no restoration.

The last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."1 Cor 15:26.

"And death...hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."

Lake of Fire and second death = brought to nothing. Death from war, sickness, disaster and old age. All of that gone forever, brought to nothing, never to be restored.

[myth-one.com]

If the wages of sin is everlasting torture in the lake of fire, then Jesus did not pay the wages for our sins!

That's right - He did not pay the wages for the sins of the reprobate demons but only for the sinful elect who were under His promise of salvation called election.

But calling it torture is like a criminal calling his sentence torture. It is earned suffering with no intent to torture.

Uh, no.

If the wages for mankind's sin is everlasting torture in the lake of fire, then Jesus did not pay the wages for anyone's sins -- as He is not in the lake of fire!

Anyone includes those you describe as the "sinful elect who were under His promise of salvation called election."

So what saves these so called "sinful elect?"

[postroad]

[Replying to post 107 by 2timothy316]Have you concidered the possibility that death is brought to nothing in order for the damned to be eternally tormented. That they simply can not die. Concider this text.

Revelation 9:1-6New International Version (NIV)

9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Do you see it. They will want to die. They will try to kill themselves. But no matter what they do to themselves they will not find relief no matter what extreme measure they take.

[tam]

[Replying to post 109 by postroad]

You know, I almost posted last night, being reminded of that verse and that you were using that verse to prop up your argument. But I waited.

So now, please note, postroad, that this torment has a time limit.

They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like womens hair, and their teeth were like lions teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.


You cannot use that verse to support eternal torment, where death eludes people forever.


Note also, concerning the lake of fire, the people are thrown into the lake of fire (which is the second death) BEFORE Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy