For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

[Replying to polonius]

RESPONSE: How then do you immediately conclude that the third person must be God?

Because the passage says so. See Genesis 18:20-21, 18:23, 18:33 - you have to give some justification why YHWH/Jehovah doesn't mean YHWH/Jehovah.

RESPONSE: Yes. One person but not Jehovah. Note the plain meaning.

Genesis 18:1 "The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day."


Genesis 18:2"Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground."
The Lord = 1, three men = three angels, not the Lord.

YHWH
"Jehovah" was popularized in the English-speaking world by William Tyndale and other pioneer English Protestant translations such as the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.[3] It is still used in some translations, such as the New World Translation, the American Standard Version, and Young's Literal Translation, but it does not appear in most mainstream English translations, as the terms "Lord" or "LORD" are used instead, generally indicating that the corresponding Hebrew is Yahweh or YHWH.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

The plain meaning is that the person talking with Abraham is referred to as YHWH/Jehovah. Both Genesis 18:1-2 and later on in the passage makes this clear.

The plain meaning therefore is that the person referred to as YHWH/Jehovah is in fact YHWH/Jehovah. If you are going to argue its someone else you have to justify it.

[polonius]

[Replying to dakoski]

Jehovah (God) and the three angels are separate beings. God is not limited in his power as are angels and angels do not have infinite power. Therefore, there are 4 separate beings identified in this passage.

Can you identify Jehovah and angels being identified as having the same nature elsewhere .n the bible?

[dakoski]

[Replying to polonius]

Jehovah (God) and the three angels are separate beings. God is not limited in his power as are angels and angels do not have infinite power. Therefore, there are 4 separate beings identified in this passage.

Can you identify Jehovah and angels being identified as having the same nature elsewhere .n the bible?

You'll have to show from the passage where 4 persons are described. Genesis 18:1-2 mentions only three persons. Genesis 19:1 shows two are angels the other is Jehovah/YHWH (Genesis 18:20-21, 18:23, 18:33)

Can you identify Jehovah and angels being identified as having the same nature elsewhere .n the bible?

I've quoted many Scriptures where the angel of Jehovah/YHWH is called both Jehovah/YHWH and God, I'll repost some here there are many more in the Hebrew Bible:

Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�

Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

[This person who is YHWH/Jehovah (in v11 the word Lord again is a translation of YHWH/Jehovah) and speaks face to face with Moses is contrasted with another person also addressed as YHWH/Jehovah who Moses may not see face to face]:

And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:19-20)

Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.

Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�

Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

[polonius]

Dakoski stated:

You'll have to show from the passage where 4 persons are described. Genesis 18:1-2 mentions only three persons. Genesis 19:1 shows two are angels the other is Jehovah/YHWH

You'll have to show from the passage where 4 persons are described. Genesis 18:1-2 mentions only three persons. Genesis 19:1 shows two are angels the other is Jehovah/YHWH (Genesis 18:20-21, 18:23, 18:33) (Perhaps you should reread these passages)

RESPONSE

Genesis 18:1-15 New International Version (NIV)
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre (That’s one person)while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby(that’s three more persons). When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

I've quoted many Scriptures where the angel of Jehovah/YHWH is called both Jehovah/YHWH and God, I'll repost some here there are many more in the Hebrew Bible

RESPONSE: Please quote one such scripture (other than the NIV bible.)

18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,Can God be seen
who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. John 1:18

[brianbbs67]

Some would say the first verse is an explanation of what is to come. That would include the Lord among them. I belive it was set up to explain what was coming. The Lord. Why would 3 become 2? Even if the Lord was not counted? Who was the other?

[dakoski]

[Replying to polonius]

RESPONSE

Genesis 18:1-15 New International Version (NIV)
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre (That’s one person)while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby(that’s three more persons). When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

The importance of reading the whole passage rather than picking out isolated verses is that this interpretation of 4 persons clearly doesn't fit the rest of the narrative.

As brianbbs67 points out if the three mentioned in Genesis 18:2 did not include the Lord (YHWH) then we'd expect Genesis 19:1 to speak of three angels not two angels. So it makes more sense to interpret Genesis 18:1-2 as two angels and YHWH/Jehovah.

I've quoted many Scriptures where the angel of Jehovah/YHWH is called both Jehovah/YHWH and God, I'll repost some here there are many more in the Hebrew Bible

[RESPONSE: Please quote one such scripture (other than the NIV bible.)

18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,Can God be seen
who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. John 1:18

Two points:
1) If you don't like the NIV you're more than welcome to look up the verses I quoted in a different translation. For example if you go to biblegateway.com you can look at dozens of translations.

2) John 1:18 makes my point rather well and is clearly consistent with the passages in the Hebrew Scriptures I've cited.

The context of John 1 is talking about Jesus as the Word who reveals the Father. So John 1:18 is saying all those places in the Hebrew Scriptures where YHWH/Jehovah speaks face to face with people (e.g. Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Samson's parents, Hagar etc.) this is not the Father its the Son revealing the Father.

For a similar passage in the Hebrew Scriptures note the contrast between Exodus 33:11 with Exodus 33:20. John is clearly making an allusion to this in John 1:18.

[polonius]

"Unlike the two men later identified as angels, the third messenger is never identified as an angel per say (in the context of Genesis 18 & 19). Regarding the third man’s identity, we must not assume what the Scripture does not say. It is a reasonable premise, based on the overall tenor of the Hebrew Old Testament, to assume he is the angel of Yahweh, a figure seen throughout the entire Old Testament in situations and events involving Yahweh’s direct intervention."

"The "angel" of Yahweh is not Yahweh. The number of angels drops to two, when the angel of Yahweh is no longer needed.

In these instances, "the angel of the Lord" is distinctly different from God:

Balaam’s disobedience of going to the leaders of Moab (Num 22:22-35)

David’s disobedience of a census (2 Sam 24:15-17, 1 Chron 21:15-18)

God’s answer of King Hezekiah’s prayer and judgment of King Sennacherib of Assyria (2 Ki 19:34-35)

David’s prayer (Ps 34:7)

Zechariah’s call to repentance (Zech 1:10-20)"

[dakoski]

[Replying to polonius]

"Unlike the two men later identified as angels, the third messenger is never identified as an angel per say (in the context of Genesis 18 & 19). Regarding the third man’s identity, we must not assume what the Scripture does not say. It is a reasonable premise, based on the overall tenor of the Hebrew Old Testament, to assume he is the angel of Yahweh, a figure seen throughout the entire Old Testament in situations and events involving Yahweh’s direct intervention."

"The "angel" of Yahweh is not Yahweh. The number of angels drops to two, when the angel of Yahweh is no longer needed.

In these instances, "the angel of the Lord" is distinctly different from God:

Balaam’s disobedience of going to the leaders of Moab (Num 22:22-35)

David’s disobedience of a census (2 Sam 24:15-17, 1 Chron 21:15-18)

God’s answer of King Hezekiah’s prayer and judgment of King Sennacherib of Assyria (2 Ki 19:34-35)

David’s prayer (Ps 34:7)

Zechariah’s call to repentance (Zech 1:10-20)"

You’re assuming:
1) YHWH only refers to the Father
2) angel of YHWH is not the Father
3) therefore the angel of YHWH is not YHWH

I agree with premise 2, I disagree with premises 1 and 3. You have to show that the Hebrew Scriptures only refer to the Father as YHWH and not to any other. Otherwise you’re making a circular argument. Can you do that without making a circular argument?

Your interpretation requires us to believe throughout the Hebrew Bible the angel of YHWH is referred to as YHWH and God but is in fact neither. This interpretation seems highly implausible given that:

1) YHWH is said to share his glory with no other

2) For your interpretation that angels who are not YHWH but addressed as YHWH to be plausible we would need evidence of this in the rest of the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew word for angel (malak) is used many times throughout the Hebrew Bible and can mean angel, prophet or messenger and is used of many different people in the Bible. So it’s easy to examine whether any other of the ‘malak’ in Scripture are referred to as YHWH. However, none are only the angel of YHWH. So this provides strong evidence against the validity of your assumption.

My interpretation does not require special pleading or circular reasoning it comes straight from the passages:

1) The Father is referred to as YHWH and no one may see him and live (Exodus 33:20, John 1:18)
2) The Angel of YHWH is also referred to as YHWH but he speaks face to face with people (e.g. Genesis 18, Exodus 33:11) and makes the Father known
3) Therefore the angel of YHWH is YHWH but distinct from the Father who is also referred to as YHWH
4) Therefore YHWH is a plurality of persons who in unity are addressed by the one divine name

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by dakoski]

The "angel of Jehovah" seems to be a reference to YHVH's immanance. In Heaven, He is the transcendent Jehovah. On earth "angel of Jehovah" is one of His appellations. Other terms for His immanence could be "Shekinah of YHVH", "the Holy Spirit" and "Immanuel".

It is unclear if Jesus claimed to have been the "angel of Jehovah" though the Evangelist refers to him as "Immanuel".

The notion that God can be both immanent and transcendent does not necessitate the construct of the Trinity. The doctrine of His omnipresence easily covers His ability to "bi-locate".

[brianbbs67]

According to the Hebraic folklore and legend(Talmud), the Malak of YHVH, was Asreal. Literally, defender of God(noted as the first of the heavenly host). But, I can't help but notice the wordplay in our modern English. God As real. Don't know if it even means a thing, but can't look past it.