Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation – New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christ’s universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13–16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1–8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israel’s tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9–10; 18:1–19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[tam]

Peace to you Checkpoint,

[Replying to post 86 by Checkpoint]

Peace to you Checkpoint!


Could you elaborate on that?


For example, what vision you believe this is the first part OF, and what might be the second (or more) parts?


thank you!

Peace again!

Sure. My elaboration will prepare for the answer to your twofold question.

Okay.

I see Revelation as a series of visions that convey spiritual realities, often in metaphorical language, concerning things that are, and that are to come [1:19].

As well as some things that were (Revelation 17:10).

But yes, I am with you so far...

The immediate context of our passage is the opening of the sixth seal and what that reveals through to the end of chapter 7.

The sixth seal reveals and illustrates the answer to its own question found in 6:17, "who shall be able to stand?" in the coming day of wrath.

Okay, so you are not talking about the actual order of events, but are just suggesting that the answer to the question asked by those who cannot stand at 6:17, is revealed in chapter 7: the 144 000 and the great crowd. Correct?


I am not sure that was (or was not) meant to be the answer to that question, but these (the 144 000, the great crowd) are all part of the Bride (all Christian), so okay...

Those unable to stand are the lost, as portrayed in the first vision, in 6:12-17.

Well, the Bride would not be afraid and asking for something or someone else to hide them from the wrath of God and the Lamb.

So unless I am misunderstanding you, then still okay...

(I cannot comment on the language 'the lost' since my Lord has not used that language with me).

Those able to stand[7:9] are the saved, as portrayed in the second vision, contained in the whole of chapter 17, which is divided into three parts, verses 1-3; 4-8; 9-17.

You meant chapter 7, not chapter 17, right? Chapter 17 is kind of the opposite, lol.



Assuming I have understood all the above correctly, how does this suggest that the 144 000 are or are not literal Israel (12 000 from each of those 12 tribes) with a literal number? Considering that in addition to the 144 000, the Great Crowd consists of people from EVERY tribe and nation and people and tongue, and theirs is a number that cannot be counted.

All of them are Christian; it is just that God has reserved a remnant from Israel for Himself (as He has always done). I'm just not sure why you think your understanding here is conflicting with the understanding I have shared as I have received from my Lord?




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

Peace to you Checkpoint,

[Replying to post 86 by Checkpoint]

Well, the Bride would not be afraid and asking for something or someone else to hide them from the wrath of God and the Lamb.

So unless I am misunderstanding you, then still okay...

(I cannot comment on the language 'the lost' since my Lord has not used that language with me).

He did in his ministry. Luke 19:10.

Those able to stand[7:9] are the saved, as portrayed in the second vision, contained in the whole of chapter 17, which is divided into three parts, verses 1-3; 4-8; 9-17.

You meant chapter 7, not chapter 17, right? Chapter 17 is kind of the opposite, lol.

Yes. Just a typo.

Assuming I have understood all the above correctly, how does this suggest that the 144 000 are or are not literal Israel (12 000 from each of those 12 tribes) with a literal number? Considering that in addition to the 144 000, the Great Crowd consists of people from EVERY tribe and nation and people and tongue, and theirs is a number that cannot be counted.

All of them are Christian; it is just that God has reserved a remnant from Israel for Himself (as He has always done). I'm just not sure why you think your understanding here is conflicting with the understanding I have shared as I have received from my Lord?

You take what is describing Israelites as literal, including their numbers, whereas I take verses 4-8 as metaphorical, including their numbers.

In my next post I will explain what exactly my view is, and why I differ from you and from others.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 111 by tam]

In my view most are looking at the 144,000 of Revelation 7 as if they are a stand alone passage as far as the chapter is concerned.

That seems to me to be a fundamental misreading.

Instead, it is better to read the entire chapter as one vision in three parts.

The first part, verses 1-3, introduces "the servants of our God", those who "have the seal of the living God"

The third part, verses 9-17, tells us who they are, and their destiny, which includes "and serve Him day and night".

The second part, verses 4-8, informs us they are all Israelites, overcomers with God, their numbers conveying complete and completed.

Finally, here is why I therefore consider the 144,00 and the great multitude to be one and the same.

John says, verse 4, "I heard the number", and then relays the details. In all this he sees nothing.

Until verse 9, when he says, "After this I looked, and..."

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 111 by tam]

In my view most are looking at the 144,000 of Revelation 7 as if they are a stand alone passage as far as the chapter is concerned.

That seems to me to be a fundamental misreading.

Instead, it is better to read the entire chapter as one vision in three parts.

The first part, verses 1-3, introduces "the servants of our God", those who "have the seal of the living God"

The third part, verses 9-17, tells us who they are, and their destiny, which includes "and serve Him day and night".

The second part, verses 4-8, informs us they are all Israelites, overcomers with God, their numbers conveying complete and completed.

Finally, here is why I therefore consider the 144,00 and the great multitude to be one and the same.

John says, verse 4, "I heard the number", and then relays te details. In all this he sees nothing.

Until verse 9, when he says, "After this I looked, and..."

Verses 1-3 speaks of the anointed co-rulers of Jesus, and their final sealing (which would occur just before Armageddon). Verses 4-8 speaks of them as "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel," and we can be confident that it doesn't refer to physical Israel because we have already seen how the people of God are now the Christian congregation---spiritual Israel. So these verses speak of spiritual Israel, the ones to rule with Jesus in heaven. Another reason for believing that this does not refer to literal, fleshly Israel, is that this passage diverges from the usual tribal listing (Numbers 1:17,47). The listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for spiritual Israel.

Then, after all that John saw about the anointed members of spiritual Israel, he saw a different crowd. It stands to reason, because the first group that John saw was numbered precisely (144,000). This different group was not able to be numbered by any man. This group, this great crowd, would be those that "came out of the Great Tribulation." (Verse 14.) I would say that to come out of something, first you would have to be in it. Yes, these people endured the Great Tribulation and came out of it and into the new system of things of earth, to be in paradise conditions under Christ's rule.

[marco]

It stands to reason, because the first group that John saw was numbered precisely (144,000). This different group was not able to be numbered by any man.

And how does one comfortably count 144,000 people? Why, in the 21st century, do people listen to the stuff of shamans, witch doctors and dreamers? What if there were 144,002 or 143,997? Does the dreaming lunatic differentiate to that degree?

The only question here is whether to spell Rubbish with a capital, as one spells Revelation with a capital R.

[onewithhim]

It stands to reason, because the first group that John saw was numbered precisely (144,000). This different group was not able to be numbered by any man.

And how does one comfortably count 144,000 people? Why, in the 21st century, do people listen to the stuff of shamans, witch doctors and dreamers? What if there were 144,002 or 143,997? Does the dreaming lunatic differentiate to that degree?

The only question here is whether to spell Rubbish with a capital, as one spells Revelation with a capital R.

Well, we don't consider the Bible the stuff of witch doctors. God knows just who each member of the 144,000 is.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 114 by onewithhim]

Verses 1-3 speaks of the anointed co-rulers of Jesus, and their final sealing (which would occur just before Armageddon).

They are not called "anointed co-rulers" in the passage; in fact this term is not found anywhere in scripture.

"final sealing" ("just before Armageddon")?

Again, absent from the passage; human ideas added into it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 114 by onewithhim]

Verses 1-3 speaks of the anointed co-rulers of Jesus, and their final sealing (which would occur just before Armageddon).

They are not called "anointed co-rulers" in the passage; in fact this term is not found anywhere in scripture.

"final sealing" ("just before Armageddon")?

Again, absent from the passage; human ideas added into it.

No, just knowledge gleaned from reading the entire Bible. There are many references to anointed co-rulers in other places in the Scriptures, as well as how we can tell that the final sealing is just before Armageddon.

[marco]

Well, we don't consider the Bible the stuff of witch doctors. God knows just who each member of the 144,000 is.

I see. I accept that putting down their names and addresses would make Revelation rather too revealing. The specific number doesn't strike you as, perhaps, silly?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 119 by marco]

What is a "silly" number as opposed to a sensible one? What is the criteria? What renders a number "silly" or not?