What is God responsible for?

[Willum]

Many things were done in God's name:
But what is he responsible for?

When the Catholic Nazi Germany attempts a genocide, a man is blamed.
When Hebrews commit genocide on the Canaan, it is his will.

We have plagues, on Catholic countries, for example. The Dark Ages were committed in Yahweh's name. Were they?

Why would Yahweh plunge the civilization of Rome, with health, farming and sanitation, back into the primitive squalor of ancient Jerusalem, if so?

If not, why did he not stop such a terror? It seems to be in His purview.

How does one determine if an act is done in God's will, or men's will?
Does the Bible tell us?

Understanding that free will is a constraint - we can also understand that mob's and large numbers of people lose free will, does this fall into God's purview, then?

In short, how does one know what God is responsible for;
Any group decision?
A decision influenced by prayer?

The position is that presented by Romans 13:

Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2 People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3 Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4 After all, they are Gods servants, and it is their duty to help you.

The position of the OP is: those atrocities committed by governments, God's will, and he is responsible for them.

[marco]

God will do the best she or he can to stop it.

Will he? What meaning does "doing his best" have when applied to a deity? are there levels of success in heaven?

But God cannot override our freedom

Well biblically he did. The revellers in Sodom had their freedom curtailed. It is a brave debater who starts a sentence with "God cannot..."

God provides creative options to maximize beauty, but its up to us how far we will actualize them.

You keep returning to the maximisation of beauty. Yes, there are beauties in nature but for every beauty there is a horror. There may be beauty in the birth of a baby; there is horror in its death. There is no maximisation process, simply the normal run of statistics - some good things, some bad. We can take care ourselves to maximise the nice occurrences and minimise tragedies. I don't see God's activity evident here at all. If he acts, he acts strictly according to statistical expectations. This may well be art concealing art.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 119 by marco]

God isn't laissez faire. God is doing all that she can. However, we have to do our part. God can't force our decisions. If I am sick, for example, I can't "force" my body to get well. I can "lure it," offer medicines; but in the end, it's up to the free self-decisions of those cells who constitute my body. Same with God and the universe.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 121 by marco]

OK, color me a brave debater, then. I do not hold that God is omnipotent, and I do not hold that God rains down thunderbolts on people, either. God lures, does not coerce. God can't coerce, because then there would be no freedom. Yes, beauty goes with horrors. As I said before, chances for evil overlap with chances for good. If you want a piano, you need piano wire. But piano wire can also be used for cutting off heads, and was in warfare. The fire that warms you can also kill you. If you wanted to eliminate all wrong notes on a piano, the solution is a wholly simple piano, one with just one note. With 88 keys, you maximize beauty, but also introduce the possibility of discordancy. God wants beauty and so took the risk of a universe that could be evil. That does not mean evil is OK with God or that she is indifferent to it, however. It just means that God is the great cosmic risk taker.

[marco]

[Replying to post 119 by marco]

God isn't laissez faire. God is doing all that she can. However, we have to do our part. God can't force our decisions. If I am sick, for example, I can't "force" my body to get well. I can "lure it," offer medicines; but in the end, it's up to the free self-decisions of those cells who constitute my body. Same with God and the universe.

I am not opposing the proposition that God helps those who help themselves, though I don't actually see much of God's assistance. I am questioning God's silence when infants, incapable of self help, require assistance. Your theology fits in perfectly with the way things work statistically and so it is almost indistinguishable from the hypothesis that there is no God.

[marco]

That does not mean evil is OK with God or that she is indifferent to it, however. It just means that God is the great cosmic risk taker.

That is a colourful way of viewing things. I hope when she takes her next risk it doesn't involve Marco to a negative extent. I would prefer her not to take any risks when she's working in my area.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 124 by marco]

You must be somewhat of a night owl like me, or else you get up very early. OK, down to business. Why do you assume that what I am talking about is tantamount to no God at all? When God interacts with us, God is interacting with creatures who have freedom, can choose for themselves. Do you want God to take that away, coerce it? Let's say that anytime something bad was to happen, God decided to jump in and grab us out of it. What you or I or anyone would do is to become reckless and irresponsible. Doesn't matter what we do, God will stop any bad consequences. Doesn't matter that I come into the OR totally drunk. God will protect the patient, forcibly guiding my hands so that I don't screw up the delicate operation I am about to perform. So, all you surgeons out there, well, don't just sit there, drink up or dope up. It doesn't matter. God will take care of it all.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 125 by marco]

Hmmm. "Colourful." UK spelling, so UK, I suspect, which explains why you are online now, not that it matters. I say the opposite. Let's hope that God does take great risks with you. The more opportunities for beauty, the more risks God takes. Beauty means complexity, and complexity means increased freedom, greater chances that things can be otherwise than as intended. As I said before, God could have created an evil-proof universe, but it would have been a very simple, boring one, one in which you couldn't even have a simple camp fire. God is the Great Aesthetician and that means the Great Risk Taker.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 117 by Monta]

God will do the best she or he can to stop it. But God cannot override our freedom, the fact we have to decide for ourselves. God provides creative options to maximize beauty, but its up to us how far we will actualize them.

However, men, it has been shown, do not have freewill in groups.
Which seems like design to me.
Therefore isn't individual freewill assured, therefore, mass will, like war, in God's purview?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 116 by hoghead1]



[center]

Alluring horrors[/center]

I certainly think you have a valid point. Just why would God let horrible things happen? My view is that God lures, does not coerce or force it

It's not at all a lure to me that this gods allows horrible things to happen. I would tend to get away from such an evil being.. if I could.

_______________

Questions:

• 1. Humans know better than to idly watch and do nothing as horrors go on. Why does it please God to do so?
  2. Why do you find such a neglectful being alluring in any way?
  3. If God can do anything at all to stop certain horrors, should we not condemn him for not lifting a divine finger?

_______________

[dio9]

[Replying to post 117 by Monta]

God will do the best she or he can to stop it. But God cannot override our freedom, the fact we have to decide for ourselves. God provides creative options to maximize beauty, but its up to us how far we will actualize them.

However, men, it has been shown, do not have freewill in groups.
Which seems like design to me.
Therefore isn't individual freewill assured, therefore, mass will, like war, in God's purview?

This idea of mass rule or mob rule surely does happen. And this is what is feared in a democracy of self rule.
Seems like a mob runs on emotion and the emotions are not the sermon on the mount kind emotions but rather hate and fear .
Intelligence is a delicate thing. Its probably the newest thing in human brain evolution, very fragile. Perhaps we will evolve a greater intelligence in time . That seems to be the direction we are headed as a race. toward Peace love and understanding, for our survival, that's how evolution works, so we can survive.