What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

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I'm sorry, BusB, I don't understand your POV and can't give any more responses because I don't understand.

I wish you a pleasant life.

I have some Good News!!!

Being wrong about a particular belief does not condemn us or anyone.

Wrong belief, however, can lead to our doing things which do weigh against our prospect of salvation. It is not the wrong belief which condemns us but what we do because of the belief.

Jehovah allows us wrong belief as a test. By it's discovery we are either shown humble (meek) or haughty (prideful).

Now, that same thing holds true whether we are speaking of an individual or of an organization which governs individuals of similar faith. Whether an individual or an organization governing individuals, we must be humble enough to accept correction.

The problem is that when we have thrown our hopes into an incorporated organization that complicates our willingness to see where we are wrong and make appropriate changes to what we believe. As an individual member believing an incorporated organization to be God's organization, we buck our personal responsibility with the excuse that we are to wait on the organization we trust to make the needed changes and we use that as an excuse to deafen our ears.

Here is the problem: What is an incorporated organization? Can the corporal really be God's? Or, is the corporal tied too tightly to the needs of the flesh to be free so as to be able to be completely God's?

A corporation is a corporal entity. This is why Paul did not highlight the organization of flesh, but instead highlighted the one of the spirit at Hebrews 12:18-24

18 "For YOU have not approached that which can be felt and which has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a tempest,
19 and the blare of a trumpet and the voice of words; on hearing which
voice the people implored that no word should be added to them. 20 For the command was not bearable to them: And if a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.
21 Also, the display was so fearsome that Moses said: I
am fearful and trembling.
22 But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,
23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect,
24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abels [blood]." (NWT - 1984)

I don't at all agree with your view that to align ourselves with an incorporated institution would mean that we are casting away our personal responsibility. First of all to be considered is that no one formally becomes a member of Jehovah's Witnesses' organization without extensive and intensive preparation. It's not a go-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type spur-of-the-moment decision to get baptized, such as you will find in other churches. People have to thoroughly agree with what they learn over a matter of months or even years.It is everyones' responsibility to make sure they are honest with themselves and their family and friends. No one should say they agree when they don't. This seems to happen a lot---people saying they agree, but then later on go against the organization and talk bad about it. Why take the vows of obedience to Jehovah's visible organization on Earth and then refute those vows?

Then after the long-considered vows of participation in the organization, the person is responsible for following Jesus' instructions that are clearly evident in the Christian Greek Scriptures (N.Y.). If he does not, he is disciplined (to various degrees) depending on the offense. This organization helps us to see whatever error we have committed. That's part of the spiritual shepherds' responsibility.

A corporal organization has always been a part of God's ways of doing things. His organization back in Moses' day was the nation of Israel. They were His special people, a chosen race, a holy nation, that they "should declare abroad the excellencies of the One who called you out of darkness..." Then after they rejected God's Son, the Christian congregation was God's "holy nation" (I Peter 2:9,10), His organization on Earth. This is true even today. We just have to be cognizant of just which organization is really Following Christ in every matter.

.

I understand all you have said but I feel you missed my point.

Answer the following questions, if not here publicly, then at least to yourself:

Do you faithfully follow that organization's every word?

Has the organization ever been wrong?

Would you follow it even in things you know or that you reasonably ought to know are wrong?

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Peace again to you BusB,

Don't get caught up on the 'gender' of the title.

Brides are also women... but the Bride of Christ consists of both men and women. Kings are men, but there are women among those who reign with Christ as kings and priests.

I fully agree that this singular bride is composed of both male and females.

Do you know why I said, this singular bride? You havent made the mistake of thinking he has many brides have you? You do realize that he is faithfully wed to one woman dont you, the New Jerusalem?

Who do you say that New Jerusalem is?

Side-note: I will respond to the rest of your post in parts after more deliberation. First I have to lock this computer down better because I am getting too many attempts to enter into it from off the Internet.

[tam]

quote="tam"]
Peace again to you BusB,

Don't get caught up on the 'gender' of the title.

Brides are also women... but the Bride of Christ consists of both men and women. Kings are men, but there are women among those who reign with Christ as kings and priests.

I fully agree that this singular bride is composed of both male and females.

Do you know why I said, this singular bride? You havent made the mistake of thinking he has many brides have you?

I have not. I also said Bride (singular).

You do realize that he is faithfully wed to one woman dont you, the New Jerusalem?

Yes.

Who do you say that New Jerusalem is?

The Bride.

Side-note: I will respond to the rest of your post in parts after more deliberation. First I have to lock this computer down better because I am getting too many attempts to enter into it from off the Internet.

No problem. Whenever you have time.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Left Site]

quote="tam"]
Peace again to you BusB,

Don't get caught up on the 'gender' of the title.

Brides are also women... but the Bride of Christ consists of both men and women. Kings are men, but there are women among those who reign with Christ as kings and priests.

I fully agree that this singular bride is composed of both male and females.

Do you know why I said, this singular bride? You havent made the mistake of thinking he has many brides have you?

I have not. I also said Bride (singular).

You do realize that he is faithfully wed to one woman dont you, the New Jerusalem?

Yes.

Who do you say that New Jerusalem is?

The Bride.

Side-note: I will respond to the rest of your post in parts after more deliberation. First I have to lock this computer down better because I am getting too many attempts to enter into it from off the Internet.

No problem. Whenever you have time.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I said: "Only those who have perfected the holiness in their inner man as was modeled by Christ the man when he was here in the flesh. The great multitude (or, great crowd) have not yet perfected holiness after the model of Christ the man. That is why they yet must be led by the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. Revelation 7: 17

I am not saying that some who are in Christ (Christians) do not take part in the first resurrection? I am saying that not all pof those who faithfully attend church are in Christ. I am saying that there is far more that we must do before we can be in Christ than just saying, "I believe."

You totally bypassed the scripture I presented to you, Revelation 7: 17.

It reads: 17 "because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life."

The 144,000 already have life by that time. By that time, the 144,000 do not need to be led to the fountains of the waters of life.

At 2nd Peter 1: 2-4, Peter tells us that before we can share the divine nature with Christ we must first be found no part of the world, being free from it's lust.

The second half of 2nd Peter 1: 4 reads, "YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust."

So if we are yet having struggles with the lust which is born of this world's thinking, then we are not in Christ.

Washing our robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb, as that great crowd is shown to have done, is only where our journey into Christ begins. It is kind of like a soldier bragging that he is a soldier before he completes his boot camp. He doesn;t really become a soldier until he is fully trained in how to be a soldier. Until then he is just a potential soldier. And he may even prove to be just a want to be soldier who proves to wash out before he ever compltes his training.

By the time of Revelation t:9 the 144,000 have secured their salvation. Not so for the great crowd that yet needs shepherding to the fountains of the waters of life.

The 144,000 form that temple the great crowd enters into. The names of the 144,000 are bricks in in it's walls build upon the lamb and the twelve Apostles.

Slavation is yet losable until one achieves the divine incoruptible nature.

[Benoni]

I see those who have overcome will be God's elect and this number 144,000 is symbolic not a literal number of people. Its a matter of hearing or seeing what God is doing though His spirit these are the elect of God and will rule and reign with Christ in the ages to come.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

The Tabernacle of David is symbolic of God's glory at Zion a place of ruler-ship and where the King lives and His court.

Here it is again:

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

[Left Site]

I see those who have overcome will be God's elect and this number 144,000 is symbolic not a literal number of people. Its a matter of hearing or seeing what God is doing though His spirit these are the elect of God and will rule and reign with Christ in the ages to come.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

The Tabernacle of David is symbolic of God's glory at Zion a place of ruler-ship and where the King lives and His court.

Here it is again:

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Very good comment Benoni.

You are right and now permit me to fill in a few details.

In earlier posts I spoke of Psalms 125: 1 "They that trust in Jehovah shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever."

Mount Zion the holy mountain is all those trusting in Jehovah whom Jesus told he would always be with. That is the 144,000. And it doesn't matter a whole lot if the number is literal or not.

Psalms 48:11 "Let mount Zion rejoice, let the daughters of Judah be glad, because of thy judgments."

Psalms 74:2 "Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt."

Psalms 78:68 "But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved."

Psalms 102:13 "Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come."

Because Zion is those trusting in Jehovah, it only makes sense that That Jehovah is Zion's God:

Psalms 146:10 "Jehovah shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye Jehovah."


I spoke in my last post to tam about the 144,00 being that temple into which the great crowd at Revelation chapter 7 are shown to enter into to worship God. This temple was the end result of the following building job:

(Paul speaking to the elect of God (that 144,000), tells them)
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[Benoni]

I see those who have overcome will be God's elect and this number 144,000 is symbolic not a literal number of people. Its a matter of hearing or seeing what God is doing though His spirit these are the elect of God and will rule and reign with Christ in the ages to come.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

The Tabernacle of David is symbolic of God's glory at Zion a place of ruler-ship and where the King lives and His court.

Here it is again:

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Very good comment Benoni.

You are right and now permit me to fill in a few details.

In earlier posts I spoke of Psalms 125: 1 "They that trust in Jehovah shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever."

Mount Zion the holy mountain is all those trusting in Jehovah whom Jesus told he would always be with. That is the 144,000. And it doesn't matter a whole lot if the number is literal or not.

Psalms 48:11 "Let mount Zion rejoice, let the daughters of Judah be glad, because of thy judgments."

Psalms 74:2 "Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt."

Psalms 78:68 "But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved."

Psalms 102:13 "Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come."

Because Zion is those trusting in Jehovah, it only makes sense that That Jehovah is Zion's God:

Psalms 146:10 "Jehovah shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye Jehovah."


I spoke in my last post to tam about the 144,00 being that temple into which the great crowd at Revelation chapter 7 are shown to enter into to worship God. This temple was the end result of the following building job:

(Paul speaking to the elect of God (that 144,000), tells them)
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Do you understand the Tabernacle of David? Acts 15:

[tam]

[Replying to post 124 by BusB]

I am not saying that some who are in Christ (Christians) do not take part in the first resurrection? I am saying that not all pof those who faithfully attend church are in Christ.

I agree that attending religious services does not make one a Christian. Attending religious services also does not mean that one has washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

But the great crowd that John saw had already washed their robes in the blood of the lamb and so they are before the throne of God as well, serving Him day and night in His temple. These ones are from every tribe, nation, people and tongue.

The 144 000 are from the twelve listed tribes only. Why else would the specific tribes be listed?

I am saying that there is far more that we must do before we can be in Christ than just saying, "I believe."

We must be baptized with holy spirit (the breath/blood/seed of JAH - which JAH has given to His Son, and which that Son gives to whomever HE chooses) in order to be Christian (an anointed one).

You totally bypassed the scripture I presented to you, Revelation 7: 17.

It reads: 17 "because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life."

He IS our shepherd. Who else would guide us to the fountains of the waters of life?

The 144,000 already have life by that time. By that time, the 144,000 do not need to be led to the fountains of the waters of life.

The great crowd who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, also have life in them at that time. The water of life is holy spirit which is the blood of the lamb.

At 2nd Peter 1: 2-4, Peter tells us that before we can share the divine nature with Christ we must first be found no part of the world, being free from it's lust.

The second half of 2nd Peter 1: 4 reads, "YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust."

So if we are yet having struggles with the lust which is born of this world's thinking, then we are not in Christ.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that anyone who has a sinful desire cannot be in Christ? Are you suggesting that anyone who yet commits a sin cannot be in Christ?

Would that not exclude everyone on the planet, in the past, present and future?

It seems to me from this and your previous quote, that you are saying the 144 000 no longer need Christ for anything.

Washing our robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb, as that great crowd is shown to have done, is only where our journey into Christ begins.

Except that these ones had come THROUGH the tribulation. Their journey would have begun before then.

It is kind of like a soldier bragging that he is a soldier before he completes his boot camp. He doesn;t really become a soldier until he is fully trained in how to be a soldier. Until then he is just a potential soldier. And he may even prove to be just a want to be soldier who proves to wash out before he ever compltes his training.

Even soldiers continue to learn after they complete boot camp. Christ said to His apostles that He had more to teach them, and we can see that they were still learning (being trained) even after receiving holy spirit (their 'graduation' from disciple to Christian: an anointed one).

By the time of Revelation t:9 the 144,000 have secured their salvation. Not so for the great crowd that yet needs shepherding to the fountains of the waters of life.

Yes, the 144 000 are sealed before the tribulation. 144 000 places are reserved for a remnant of Israel: 12 000 each from the 12 listed tribes.

The rest need to continue to work out our salvation. They could "wash out", 'curse God and die', give up their faith and deny Christ and God; etc.

But the ones John sees are those who did NOT "wash out"; they came THROUGH the great tribulation.

The 144,000 form that temple the great crowd enters into. The names of the 144,000 are bricks in in it's walls build upon the lamb and the twelve Apostles.

The Body of Christ is the temple, is it not?

Slavation is yet losable until one achieves the divine incoruptible nature.

Which is what the white robe represents: the new body; the spirit body.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Benoni]

[Replying to tam]

There is no "Great tribulation".

Most people have the idea that tribulation means wrath, judgment, torment and vengeance. The Greek word is thlipsis, meaning "pressure." It is derived from the word thilbo that means "to crowd, to be pressed upon in a narrow place. Pressures are used to PRESS US INTO THE KINGDOM! Trying to pray ourselves out of these distresses only defeats their very purpose. But when, in the midst of our pressures, we pray that God would bring us deeper into Himself, then these very straits have served their purpose " for they have channeled us into Him."

Tribulation simply means "pressure," and great tribulation mean "great pressure." Everybody, on some level, experiences pressure in this world. Pressure, in modern medical terms, is called external stress factors. Physicians now recognize the great importance of internal stress, caused by reaction to external stress factors, in causing and aggravating a host of diseases. In this world all of us are subjected to a host of stresses " just as Jesus said! Examination of the blood of a person experiencing internal stress will reveal the presence of abnormal toxic chemical compounds that are formed as a result of his emotions of frustration, resentment, anger, hate, anxiety, worry and fear " which result in a number of diseases. The cares of this world have turned many peoples lives into a pressure cooker. Not to speak of war, persecution, or martyrdom " just the strain of everyday living in our modern society is steadily growing worse because of financial problems, higher taxes, inflation, recession, joblessness, terrorism, the disturbing world situation, responsibilities, sickness, hospital bills, rebellion in the home, drugs, street gangs and a host of other conditions.
The distractions and pressures of "this life" are too numerous to mention, we are all faced with them every day, but when they so overwhelm us, so mar our lives with anxiety, stress, fatigue and distraction that we find ourselves so distressed and depressed that we are not able to gather ourselves together and walk in the joy, peace, and victory of the kingdom of God " then we have not discovered that HE THAT IS WITHIN US IS MIGHTY AND HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD!

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I agree that attending religious services does not make one a Christian. Attending religious services also does not mean that one has washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
But the great crowd that John saw had already washed their robes in the blood of the lamb and so they are before the throne of God as well, serving Him day and night in His temple. These ones are from every tribe, nation, people and tongue.

Washing their robes and making them white in the blood of the lamb merely means they have embraced the sin forgiving power of Christ's ransom sacrifice by placing their faith in it and in God through Christ.

It is only a beginning. We all did that when we first began to have and show faith.

The 144 000 are from the twelve listed tribes only. Why else would the specific tribes be listed?

I would have to get into other details to explain that to you. In speaking to people, sometimes the questions they ask become like trying to tell a carpenter apprentise the details of stair construction while he keeps asking about details of another aspect of construction.

For now I will just tell you that Israel spoken of there is not flesh and blood Israel. Further, it is an Israel that covers the entire earth like the four winds.

We must be baptized with holy spirit (the breath/blood/seed of JAH - which JAH has given to His Son, and which that Son gives to whomever HE chooses) in order to be Christian (an anointed one).

You are yet putting the cart before the horse. That anointing is but a beginning. They must yet, "put on Christ", in their lives. By the time of Revelation 7: 0 the 144,000 have already "put on Christ", but the gret crowd has not. The great crowd is just beginning the journey of putting on Christ. That is why they yet need to be shepherded to the waters of life. The waters of life flow out of the bellies of the Christ-like 144,000 per Jesus' promise at John 7: 38 "He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow. "Will flow", as in their future. The 144,000 have achieved that by the time the great crowd appears out of the great tribulation. The great crowd are dependent of those fountains of the water of life which flow from out of the bellies of those individuals who are one of the 144,000. So "shepherding them to the fountains of the water of life", means they are being guided to the members of that group of 144,000 for teaching.

Edit: Baptism into Christ as spoken of at Romans 6: 3 and Galatians 3: 27 is not the same thing as water baptism. We are baptized into Christ by walking as Christ and enduring our trials as did Christ. And we do this through faith in Christ else we wouldn't do it. It is that sort of working faith which makes us children of Abraham. And that does not happen over night.