Immortality of the soul

[Xidorn]

Do we as humans posses an immortal soul as believed by most people? I am of the view that we do not.

[myth-one.com]

In regards to mankind's understanding of physical death:
1. A few people will never die
2. Some will die once, and
3. Some will die twice

Great opinion based on what?

The Bible.

The few who will never die are those Christians who are alive at the Second Coming of Christ. They will be born again as spirits and meet Jesus in the air upon his return:

The word second coming is just like the false belief man will be raptured and is a religious term and not found in the Bible; there are many returns of the Lord not just two.

Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many.

Perhaps many of those returns are simply those claiming I am the Messiah.

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

Then we which are alive and Christians (We) shall not all die (sleep), but all will be born again as spirits (changed). When they receive their spiritual bodies their physical bodies are no longer required and will be discarded. These Christians will not experience death in the usual sense. However, as their physical bodies will rot and decay, they could be said to die in that they
no longer support a life.

Those humans who died as Christians will be born again as spiritual bodies upon Jesus' return. This is the first resurrection. This much larger group will die once.

Those who died as nonbelievers and are resurrected again as physical bodies in the second resurrection following the millennium, and still refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior, will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death. These individuals will die twice as humans. There is no recovery from the second death. It is eternal! They do not suffer in hell for eternity. Their death is eternal, not their act of dying! They are gone, dust, erased, nada, gone bye-bye, etc. So these will die twice.

After this, death and the grave are finished. Any remaining life is spiritual. The end of time and the age of man are now completed. Man, as a physical being, no longer exists!

If you want to get in a debate over the rapture I would love too.

Define rapture.

Spirits are stuck with immortality and cannot die.

Where did you dig this up?
The Bible.

[Benoni]

In regards to mankind's understanding of physical death:
1. A few people will never die
2. Some will die once, and
3. Some will die twice

Great opinion based on what?

The Bible.

That is what you say; but the Bible is far too large a book with many verses; where in the Bible. You need to show me in detail. Am i not using detail for my post? Go to biblegate.com find the verses and post them.

The few who will never die are those Christians who are alive at the Second Coming of Christ. They will be born again as spirits and meet Jesus in the air upon his return:

The word second coming is just like the false belief man will be raptured and is a religious term and not found in the Bible; there are many returns of the Lord not just two.

Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many.

Perhaps many of those returns are simply those claiming I am the Messiah.

No they are Bible verses declaring his return in many ways.


And so how is He returning as well as when? I do not see a rapture in the list below?

Mt 24:27 Light or lighting
Rev. 16:15 thief
Matt. 25:6 bridegroom
Rev 22:16/2:28 morning star
Mal 4:2 sun of righteousness
Phip 3:20,21 resurrection power
II Thes. 1 7-8 flaming fire
Mal 3 1-3 priesthood company, fuller soap, refining fire
1 Thes 4:16-17 air
Hos. 6:3/James 5:7-8 rain
Rev 19:11-14 on white horse
Ma 25:31-34 king
1 Peter 5:4 Chief Sheppard
Ma 16:27 Comes with angels
Jude 14:/1 John 14:18/II Thes 1:10 comes with saints
Jude 14:15 Judgment
Rev 22:12 with reward

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

Then we which are alive and Christians (We) shall not all die (sleep), but all will be born again as spirits (changed). When they receive their spiritual bodies their physical bodies are no longer required and will be discarded. These Christians will not experience death in the usual sense. However, as their physical bodies will rot and decay, they could be said to die in that they
no longer support a life.

Those humans who died as Christians will be born again as spiritual bodies upon Jesus' return. This is the first resurrection. This much larger group will die once.

Those who died as nonbelievers and are resurrected again as physical bodies in the second resurrection following the millennium, and still refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior, will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death. These individuals will die twice as humans. There is no recovery from the second death. It is eternal! They do not suffer in hell for eternity. Their death is eternal, not their act of dying! They are gone, dust, erased, nada, gone bye-bye, etc. So these will die twice.

After this, death and the grave are finished. Any remaining life is spiritual. The end of time and the age of man are now completed. Man, as a physical being, no longer exists!

If you want to get in a debate over the rapture I would love too.

Define rapture.

The Rapture is a religious word just like second coming not found in the Bible. This believe was started by a Catholic Monk in the early 1800s. It limits peoples understanding of the many returns of the lord like I just posted above.

Spirits are stuck with immortality and cannot die.

Where did you dig this up?
The Bible.

Again Far to vague.

[Lux]

Moderator Comment

Is that from the Old or New Testament?

It's Hindu/Buddhist/New Age mysticism. My guess is that he/she contacts spirit guides, believes in reincarnation, believes in chakras and possibly the kundalini, believes in a great awakening, practices trance meditation, etc.

I dunno. Matthew, Mark, Luke, Zeus, . . .

(This is directed at both fewwillfindit and myth-one.com)

It's against the forum rules to engage in discussions about other members. If you want to ask someone a question, use the Questions for a specific user subforum.

Furthermore, I don't know what your intentions were when you posted this, but it sounds like you're making fun of someone's beliefs. This forum is for people of all convictions/religions/points of view to debate, not only mainstream ones. You have to respect everyone here, not only those whose opinions you agree with, or whose religions you accept.

[marco]

Jesus said in Matthew 10 verse 28 "[...] fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. " Douay-Rhemis Bible

This shows that soul is different from body, which seems rather obvious.

New International Version (1984) - Ezekiel 18: 20
The soul who sins is the one who will die."

This has meaning only when we speak of the life of the soul being destroyed by sin. Obviously those who do not sin still die - bodily. Again, regarding soul and body as the same is possibly an error.

"... until you return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and you will return to dust." - Genesis 3: 19

Yes, but "you" is not the soul; the body perishes. In the RC Church there is a ceremony held on Ash Wednesday where it is said: "Remember man that thou art dust and into dust thou shalt return." Hardly surprising. We know the body perishes.


The theology we invent by regarding soul and body as the same requires us to believe that human flesh will last forever, with the same bodily functions - except aging. Babies will stay as babies. Imaginative, yes.

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 153 by marco]

The soul needs to be saved but not our spirit, When God created man in his own image and likeness we became spirits because that is what God's image and likeness is spirit not soul. God is a spirit true believers worship the Father in spirit and truth. Deep within every man there is a secret sanctum where dwells the mysterious essence of his being. This inmost reality is that part of a man which separates him from every other living creature and makes him uniquely mankind. This deep hidden power is what it is of itself independent of any other part of the mans complex nature. The deep-in human entity of which we speak is called in the scriptures the spirit of man. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God (I Cor. 2:11). As

This truth denies that man is an earthly, physical being having a spirit and declares, rather, that he is a spirit having a physical body. That which makes a man a human being is not his body but his spirit, in which the image of God originally lay.

Most people on earth have forgotten their beginning. But the scripture is clear. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likenessand the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created He him (Gen. 1:26; 2:7; 1:28). What God actually did was that He imaged Himself in man. God imaged Himself in man by forming Himself in a man of earth. Thus man was created as a visible expression of the invisible God. Now that hasnt changed!

What has changed is our perception of ourselves because of the fall. But before we discuss that, let us see just how it was that God imaged Himself in man, and how it is that man is a spiritual being having an earthly experience, instead of a physical being
having a spiritual experience.

Wonderful words were spoken at the very dawn of civilization, recorded in the oldest book of the Bible, which state simply and powerfully the reality of man.

There is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding (Job 32:8).

It is something great in man, Elihu conceives, that he is spirit, and, because he is, is capable of being inspired. He is not here speaking of Adam as he was in the primordial glory of Eden, nor yet of regenerated man in this wonderful age of the Holy Spirit; but, speaking thousands of years ago in the present tense, he magnifies man as being able to be inspired, just because he is spirit. And it is God, who likewise is spirit, that inspires him! Can we not see by this that the very being of man has a God-ward or divine side, being related constitutionally to Him. The testimony of scripture is incontrovertible that there is a spirit in man, or what is the same, the fact that we are, as being spirit, permeable and inspirable by the Almighty!

The word spirit means literally, breath, and denotes a quality of life because, in the case of the spirit in man, In that long ago beginning God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Gen. 2:7). Now all the animals and beasts of the field are also called living souls in the creation
story in Genesis.

But there is a difference! Let the fact be imprinted indelibly upon our minds that none of these became a living soul by the inbreathing of God! God did not Himself breathe into the nostrils of cattle, lions, elephants, birds, fish, cockroaches, or any other creature. Their breath of life is of an inferior quality to that of man. The breath of life of the animal kingdom is merely the oxygen of our lower atmosphere. They are, therefore, a creation of God but are unrelated to God. The breath of life in man, however, originates out of the very spirites-sence of God Himself " inbreathed " thus, when a man dies his body returns to the dust from whence it came, but his spirit returns to God who gave it! (Eccl. 12:7). JP Eby

[marco]

When God created man in his own image and likeness we became spirits because that is what God's image and likeness is spirit not soul.

It is pleasing to imagine that we are nobler than the noblest ape or sheep dog though we eat and sleep and propagate in the same style. It is odd to suppose that the brutish among us breathes divinity while a guide dog merits nothing. Man has a fine conceit of himself!

The wonderful words spoken in Genesis are imaginative since they were unheard and the scenario unwitnessed. The metaphor is a nice one but again it is hard to imagine that in the primordial state of Mother Earth, there was a cultivated plot later destroyed by man's first disobedience.

We can declare what we like about the soul and its post mortem meanderings but it is all speculation. I can readily accept that something of man survives his brief existence. Horace built a monument more lasting than bronze, as did Shakespeare and others. If I can accept many dimensions in mathematics I can accept that there are regions of which we know nothing. And there - who knows? - might the soul find its rest.

[Benoni]

When God created man in his own image and likeness we became spirits because that is what God's image and likeness is spirit not soul.

It is pleasing to imagine that we are nobler than the noblest ape or sheep dog though we eat and sleep and propagate in the same style. It is odd to suppose that the brutish among us breathes divinity while a guide dog merits nothing. Man has a fine conceit of himself!

The wonderful words spoken in Genesis are imaginative since they were unheard and the scenario unwitnessed. The metaphor is a nice one but again it is hard to imagine that in the primordial state of Mother Earth, there was a cultivated plot later destroyed by man's first disobedience.

We can declare what we like about the soul and its post mortem meanderings but it is all speculation. I can readily accept that something of man survives his brief existence. Horace built a monument more lasting than bronze, as did Shakespeare and others. If I can accept many dimensions in mathematics I can accept that there are regions of which we know nothing. And there - who knows? - might the soul find its rest.

I use scripture to point out my as you call it metaphor and yes God hides his deep Word in metaphor, parables and yes even in numbers and mathematics'. Why? Because he can. He HIDES things that are signified in HARD sentences and symbolic images which are not easily understood. Neither are the "parables" which to the multitudes he spoke that they might not understand (not that they would). The disciples themselves even ourselves do not understand until he expounds them to us. We are to prove ourselves a workman unto God (not men) one who correctly handles the word of truth. Stewards are they which must be found faithful. A steward as was Paul said, was "Of the mysteries of God" (the word mystery is used over twenty times in the New Testament and means sacred secret in the Greek) the very thing Jesus made his disciples regarding what he makes known to them. To take one verse and assume that by it i means exactly what it means "concretely" would void workmanship, rightly dividing and comparing "spiritual with spiritual".

NOTICE:
Prov 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

The glory of God is a very big deal....

Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

[JehovahsWitness]

The theology we invent by regarding soul and body as the same requires us to believe that human flesh will last forever, with the same bodily functions - except aging. Babies will stay as babies. Imaginative, yes.

Well personally I believe all that is an invented theology, just part of someones over active imagination. I don't believe it is true at all. I like your posts however because they are not interpretations but statements of the absolute true reading as intended by the author.

New International Version (1984) - Ezekiel 18: 20
The soul who sins is the one who will die."

This has meaning only when we speak of the life of the soul being destroyed by sin.

I didn't see "the explanation "only if... destroyed by sin" but like I said, I like your posts because with you there is no need for you to say "I believe" or "the way I see it" "or in my opinion". You say what a scripture means and that is "what it means" no need to qualify. I admire your confidence. No counterargument to your posts from me.


Thank you,

JW

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 155 by marco]You call it noble as I see what scripture points out what man is and I understand for man is in a fallen state of grace which I see as the realm of death. You see when Adam sinned in the garden that to was God's will. For without a sinner there is no reason for a saviour. God first created a saviour long before there was a sinner because this world as we know it is the foundation of our salvation. I will use the metaphor of a young man going into the military and all his life he knew only the good of his mothers love and family but now he is grown and must go though the process of becoming a soldier and his whole life will go though much tribulation till finally he has endured the trial and becomes a mature soldier. it is spiritually maturity God desires in His sons and what better place than the realm of death.
You see when Adam died he did NOT die physically for he lived until he was 930 years old (I see that 930 years as how long it took for Adam to shed the ream of glory for being in the presence of God). We all understand what physical death is BUT.... But Adam was still in the realm of (spiritual) death for he could no longer see, hear, smell, touch the realm of God or the realm of the spirit for he had become not a spiritual man but a soulish man a man of flesh. 1 Corinthians 2:
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

[JehovahsWitness]

You see when Adam sinned in the garden that to was God's will. For without a sinner there is no reason for a saviour. God first created a saviour long before there was a sinner because this world as we know it is the foundation of our salvation.

Would this not be like deliberately burning someone's house down because you had prior to the event appointed a fire brigade?

Is it reasonable to think God appointed a savior and then He thought, "Now I've appointed a savior I'd better create a disaster so that he won't be unemployed"? Wouldn't this be like digging your child's eyes out because you bought a book on braille?





Further reading
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001549#h=51