The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

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The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:


PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.
That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #151

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Jesus as a human was not included in the group of humans that were "appointed to die." He was perfect and sinless. It was only because of humans' SINS that they are appointed to die. Jesus did not belong in that category.

If he hadn't been murdered at the insistence of the Jewish leaders, he would've never died at all. He wouldn't even have grown old.

So, with that thought, how do you answer my question?
It is appointed to all men to die once:
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

For as in Adam all die, . . . (I Corinthians 15:22)
And Jesus was a man:
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)
Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)
Not only was Jesus appointed to die as all men, the Word was made a man specifically for the purpose of dying! Death was a requirement!
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)
Without the possibility of dying, He could not have completed His mission.

======================================================================

The result of His never sinning was not that He could never die His "first death."

The wages of our sins is the everlasting second death!

Jesus does not have to face being cast into the lake of fire and suffer the second and everlasting second death.

Why not? Because He never sinned.

Under the New Testament Covenant the wages of sin is death, Jesus never sinned, thus He is an heir to everlasting life under that covenant. His name is written in the Book of Life as an heir. In fact, He is the only true heir under that covenant.

Had He never died, there would always remain the possibility that He could sin. His first death sealed the deal. That ended His life without sin and His reward is that He is an heir to everlasting spiritual life.

Here is the "legal" justification:
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)
The inheritance under the new testament becomes the reward earned by Jesus living a sinless life under the old covenant.

Christians become joint-heirs to everlasting life with Christ even though we sin:
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)
How can that be?

God allows Jesus to refuse His inheritance and offer it to those who believe in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins.

Here is the "legalize" for that:
Romans 5 wrote:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
==================================================================================

So as I stated earlier:

Our salvation is based on Jesus living a sinless life and thus becoming an heir to everlasting spiritual life under the Old Testament Covenant.

Jesus then has something to "barter" with!

He then offers His inheritance of everlasting life to those who accept Him as their Savior.

Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #152

Post by PinSeeker »

@JehovahsWitness:
  • “Are you suggesting there is something in (Genesis 1:26-27) that suggests a conscious part of man that survives the death of the body?â€�
Yes.
  • “If so what?â€�
I think I was quite clear.
  • “When you say from and "in an earthly perspective ...when someone dies they no longer exist " are you refering to their physical death…?"
Yes, but from our physical perspective only.
  • “Are you here suggesting (Ecclesiastes 4:1-3) refers to the suffering of people after their death?â€�
In a certain sense, yes. But really, no. Yes is the sense that myth-one thinks Ecclesiastes 9:5 refers to people not knowing anything (or not existing) after death. But actually no, because the whole of Ecclesiastes is about life “under the sun. Myth-one thinks 9:5 supports his belief in annihilationism, or that the dead cease to exist at all upon their death. But 9:5 is does not speak to what does or does not happen after death. In the same way, Ecclesiastes 4 does not, either. But I’m intentionally using Ecclesiastes 4 in error in the same way he’s using Ecclesiastes 9 in error in an effort to show him that using Ecclesiastes 9 in that way causes Ecclesiastes 4 to seemingly contradict Ecclesiastes 9.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #153

Post by PinSeeker »

@myth-one:
  • “Judgment is a one time experience for each individual being judged. Judgment does not last forever.â€�
Ohhhh, yes, it does last forever. It is not a one-time experience but rather lasts forever... That’s the very meaning of the world eternal.
  • “You are confusing judgment with punishment.â€�
No, you’re confusing the temporal with the eternal.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #154

Post by PinSeeker »

@LuciusWrong:

Interesting moniker… Welcome.

I’m witchya on the “pan-millenialist� thing (that it will all pan out in the end). That’s pretty good; l like that. :)

I disagree with your conclusion in that the Millennium is not just a “critical component� of the story, but rather it IS the Story – His Story. It boils everything down in a sense and says, “Yeah, a lot of bad stuff is going to happen throughout history, but God is always in control, and that will be crystal clear – and final – in the end. God, in the Person of Christ Jesus, is the Victor, and everyone will see it. It is being revealed and will finally be revealed – thus the revelation – to everyone.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #155

Post by PinSeeker »

@onewithim:
  • “How you can get around Jesus' subservience to the Father is astonishing…â€�
I wouldn’t dream of doing that. But unlike you, I refuse to ignore His obvious claims of His deity and equality with God the Father.
  • “all this was said to John when Jesus was in heavenâ€�
We needn’t argue about this, because it's really quite minor in relation to... other things, but no, at the beginning of Revelation, we read that God sent His revealing of Christ and communicated it by Jesus to John. So, yes, it was after Jesus had ascended to heaven (and maybe that’s all your saying, and if so, I agree), but none of this was spoken to John from heaven. It was indeed a vision. God sent His Word many times through the Bible (OT and NT) in this way (via visions).
  • “You dismiss the clear meaning of "I and the Father are one…â€�
No, I dismiss what you think is the clear meaning of “I and the Father are one.� Or, let me correct that to say I don’t dismiss it at all, really, but rather deem what you think is the clear meaning of “I and the Father are one� as very much incomplete. What you say of John 1:1 in the very next sentence, “Jesus is not God but God's SON, and he was WITH God in the beginning, not God…� is verification of that, because you intentionally leave out the last part and even replace your own words, “not God� with those of the Bible. It reads:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.� (emphasis mine)

This is clear evidence of at least four things:

1. Jesus has always been in existence,

2. He was, like you say, always with God the Father.

3. Jesus always was (and is) God.

4. God exists in at least two distinct Persons.

Therefore, again, not the complete invalidity of what you believe, but rather its incompleteness. And, therefore, not my complete dismissal of what you think, but rather my acknowledgement of its incompleteness. But the omission causing that incompleteness is… major.
  • “I have had hopeful sentiments throughout discussing all this with you...â€�
As did I…
  • "… but, unfortunately, it is becoming evident that we will never have a meeting of the minds…“
That may very well be, but, well, I never say 'never.' God’s more powerful than either one of us. By, you know, just a bit… :D To be honest, it sounds like at least a bit of a cop-out.
  • “…so I will refrain from responding to any more of your posts.â€�
Suit yourself.
  • “I wish you the best.â€�
Same to you. Grace and peace to you.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #156

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: @myth-one:
  • “Judgment is a one time experience for each individual being judged. Judgment does not last forever.â€�
Ohhhh, yes, it does last forever. It is not a one-time experience but rather lasts forever... That’s the very meaning of the world eternal.
  • “You are confusing judgment with punishment.â€�
No, you’re confusing the temporal with the eternal.
If one's judgment lasts forever, when does their punishment start?

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #157

Post by PinSeeker »

@myth-one:
  • If one's judgment lasts forever, when does their punishment start?
At the Judgment, as executed by Jesus. Which is preceded by the second resurrection, which is preceded by Jesus's return. Have I not been quite clear on this? I have.

Let it go, myth-one. I mean, what's the problem? Why the obsession? It seems rather unhealthy. Just say, "Okay, PinSeeker, I understand your position, but I disagree," and let it go.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #158

Post by myth-one.com »


PinSeeker wrote:Just say, "Okay, PinSeeker, I understand your position, but I disagree," and let it go.
You would have me lie?

I don't understand your position. Here is where we are:
Myth-one.com wrote:Judgment is a one time experience for each individual being judged. Judgment does not last forever.
PinSetter then wrote:Ohhhh, yes, it does last forever. It is not a one-time experience but rather lasts forever...
Myth-one.com then wrote:If one's judgment lasts forever, when does their punishment start?
PinSetter then wrote:At the Judgment, as executed by Jesus.
So the punishment begins before the person being judged is found guilty?

And you think I'm confused?

==================================================================
Revelation 20:13 wrote:And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
I understand that there was a completion to the judgment. They were judged. Past tense. It's over.
Revelation 20:15 wrote:And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And following their judgment in verse 13, I understand that verse 15 states those whose names were not written in the Book of Life were cast into the lake of fire.

That is where the death sentence for their sins is quickly carried out:
Romans 6:23 wrote:For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16 wrote:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Matthew 25:46 wrote:And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Oh well, that is what the scriptures state.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #159

Post by Checkpoint »

PinSeeker wrote: @myth-one:
  • “Judgment is a one time experience for each individual being judged. Judgment does not last forever.â€�
Ohhhh, yes, it does last forever. It is not a one-time experience but rather lasts forever... That’s the very meaning of the world eternal.
  • “You are confusing judgment with punishment.â€�
No, you’re confusing the temporal with the eternal.
Confusing it can so easily be or become.

Judgment is the decision being made by the Judge. It is a one time experience for the individual, and thus it is temporal.

Punishment is the specific decision made regarding the individual so judged. As such, it is one-time and temporal.

The specific Judgment decision, whether it be life or punishment, is eternal and lasts forever.

Grace and peace to you, Pinseeker and myth-one.

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Re: The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

Post #160

Post by Checkpoint »

PinSeeker wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
PinSeeker wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 119 by tam]

Checkpoint wrote
3. No non-Christians will be resurrected to LIFE.
Tammy responded
This is incorrect.

This is a false teaching from men.

More than just Christians enter into the Kingdom and receive the gift of eternal life.
No one comes to the Father except by Jesus, as stated by Jesus Himself. No one is resurrected to life eternal except those that are in the Savior, those who are of Christ, Christians. You're very diplomatic, Checkpoint, but even Jesus did some rebukin.' :D
Hold on a minute, Pinseeker!

Very diplomatic? Not so much.

Pondering? That's what I said and that's what I am doing just now.

What about each of those passages Tammy quoted, then?

How do they lend no support to her claim?

Grace and peace.
I honestly haven't followed the side conversation between you and she, Checkpoint. But if she said anything contrary to Jesus's own statement in John 14:6-7 ...
  • “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
... then I feel absolutely confident that no Scripture would lend any support to any such claims. I might take a brief look back. Peace, brother.
Her claims and her scriptures are in post 19.

She was not writing or quoting about what you are referring to.

Grace and peace to you today and always.

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