God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 144 by PinSeeker]

In answering this, I'll pose a question to you, Checkpoint. John Smith is as alive as you and me, but not a Christian as you and I are. Question: Is John, although living, breathing, walking, and talking -- alive -- spiritually alive or spiritually dead?

John is physically alive but spiritually dead. Christianity 101!

Magnificent! A wonderful first step. But wait...

Our differences raise their head when we look at what we think/God says happens beyond this present life, this present age.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. But if you want me to lead you through something, you have to let me. Well. You don't HAVE to... But you know what I mean.

Thanks Pinseeker, for answering my question; it was clear, and easy to follow.

You're most welcome. Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully it was an enjoyable read for you; it was an enjoyable write for me.

Regarding your question of "(W)hat is included in the terms 'made in His image, after His likeness' and what is excluded"... We could probably go on and on for years about what all that entails, but in keeping it specifically relevant to what we are discussing, I would assert to you the following:

Part -- part -- of being made in the image of God, a reflection of Him, is our intrinsic eternality. Now, this eternality is surely not in the sense that we are, or ever will be, equal to God, of course. But we will exist forever -- in one state or the other -- just as He does. We cannot exist in eternity past, of course, as He did, because we were created by Him. But we will all exist in eternity future, as He will. The question for us, as His created (creatures), is not whether we will exist or not, but rather which state we will exist in. In other words, give that we will exist in eternity, will we exist:

• [A.] in perpetual praise of His glorious grace and reap the full benefit and enjoyment of it, which is true -- spiritual -- life?

or:

• [B.] in continued denial of His glorious grace and in perpetual judgment, in which His grace is permanently and totally removed, which is truly the absence of life and thus true -- spiritual -- death?

But aside from that question, this intrinsic eternality is part of being made in His image, part of His glory reflected by us. You may not agree. If not, that's okay, but at least now you know how the two concepts are connected. I apologize for not spelling out that connection earlier, but to be honest, I consider this part of Christianity 101, too. I just assumed you would immediately make that connection for yourself. Please don't misunderstand; I surely do not consider you (or anyone else) somehow "lacking in intelligence" in any way for not making that connection, and am not implying anything of the sort.

More questions coming your way, probably!

Right on. Looking forward to it.

Hey, in your most recent reply to myth-one, embedded in there was a quote from me to which he was responding. And you asked at the end, "How do you connect 'spiritually dead' with what comes later to the spiritually dead, The Second Death?" Was this question intended for me? If not, please feel free to disregard.[/quote]

Grace and peace to you.

To you also, Checkpoint.

[myth-one.com]

You say the Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally. And you state that "spiritual death" is the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age. So those experiencing your "Second Death" will simply continue the life they are living now, except that it will continue for all eternity.

Yes, in a manner of speaking, but experientially it will be infinitely worse, because in this eternal state, the grace of God will be non-existent for them. "Simply continue"? It won't be "simple" at all. Far from it.

That's not very harsh.

Well not when you put it the way you just did. But the way you just put it is far, far, FAR too simple.

This was the way you put it, not I.

You said, "The Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally."

You defined "spiritual death" as the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age.

========================================

If the Second Death results in everlasting spiritual death,

AND

spiritual death is the natural state of all people born into this world.

THEN

the Second Death is simply everlasting life as we are experiencing it at the present time.

Based on your comments, my conclusion was that the punishment for nonbelievers wasn't very harsh.

==============================================

Now, you want to complicate your claim by making your everlasting physical life for nonbelievers infinitely worse than their current existence!

I agree that infinitely worse is very much harsher, punitive, and sadistic.

What is your justification for this change?

I understand that the church needs it to be harsh so that it becomes something to avoid.

That is, one should believe in Jesus to avoid infinite torment.

But why does God need it to be harsh?

Isn't God supposed to be Love?

============================================

Your past defenses for everlasting torment of nonbelievers is that it somehow "justified" God's justice.

============================================

Everlasting torment of nonbelievers is actually in opposition to God's justice.

God states that nonbelievers will perish.

You want to torment them eternally.

Under whose authority?

Are Christians better than Muslims, Jews, atheists?

Who are we to condemn anyone?

[tam]

Pinseeker (peace to you), may I ask, did you ever respond to "B" of post 85?


viewtopic.php?p=1002588#1002588



If so, could you point it out or repeat it for me? Thank you!

[PinSeeker]

You say the Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally. And you state that "spiritual death" is the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age. So those experiencing your "Second Death" will simply continue the life they are living now, except that it will continue for all eternity.

Yes, in a manner of speaking, but experientially it will be infinitely worse, because in this eternal state, the grace of God will be non-existent for them. "Simply continue"? It won't be "simple" at all. Far from it.

That's not very harsh.

Well not when you put it the way you just did. But the way you just put it is far, far, FAR too simple.

This was the way you put it, not I.

Right, and I stand fully behind that still. One hundred percent.

You said, "The Second Death results in "spiritual death" extending eternally."

You defined "spiritual death" as the natural state of all people born into this world in the present age.

Yes, I know exactly what I said, myth-one. I'll say the exact same thing again if you like.

If the Second Death results in everlasting spiritual death, AND spiritual death is the natural state of all people born into this world, THEN the Second Death is simply everlasting life as we are experiencing it at the present time.

No, this is a false conclusion, because at the present time, those who are unbelieving (unrepentant sinners) -- even though they do not know it (the dead know nothing, in the real, correct sense of Ecclesiastes 9 and not the incorrect one that you propagate) -- are under and living in the grace of God and not His judgment.

Based on your comments, my conclusion was that the punishment for nonbelievers wasn't very harsh.

Right, and I simply pointed out that that conclusion is exceedingly shallow.

I agree that infinitely worse is very much harsher, punitive, and sadistic.

Well, I would agree with "very much harsher" and "punitive," But I would surely not agree with "sadistic," as that is mere opinion.

What is your justification for this change?

There has been no change; I have been very consistent throughout.

I understand that the church needs it to be harsh so that it becomes something to avoid. That is, one should believe in Jesus to avoid infinite torment.

Excellent. Maybe there's hope for your understanding yet.

But why does God need it to be harsh?

God doesn't "need it to be harsh." But God's justice is uncompromising. Do you think the wages for sin should be something less than death?

Isn't God supposed to be Love?

As I said some time ago in this very thread, myth-one -- back on page 10 at the end of Post 98, to be exact -- people often feel that hell is some great blemish on God’s love. The Bible presents it as the opposite. Hell magnifies for us the love of God by showing us how far God went, and how much He went through, to save us. And for those who spend eternity in hell -- unrepentant sinners -- even discipline and punishment, and even judgment are administered by God in love. In a very real way, even the anguish, regret, and profound sadness -- the torment -- endured by those who will spend eternity in hell is an indirect consequence of the unfailing love of God.

Your past defenses for everlasting torment of nonbelievers is that it somehow "justified" God's justice.

Nope. Never would I say such a thing. But God's justice demands love in the form of discipline, punishment, and judgment, as I just said above.

Everlasting torment of nonbelievers is actually in opposition to God's justice.

God does not do the tormenting, myth-one. I get that you can't accept that, but that's a problem you can overcome only not thinking of things in such a shallow manner, and I think you are fully capable of that.

God states that nonbelievers will perish.

And they will, but they will not, in eternity, cease to exist. See my previous post concerning with perishing and spiritual death really is.

You want to torment them eternally.

Well, no, I want the exact opposite. But in the end, it matters not what I want.

Who are we to condemn anyone?

Who of us is condemning anybody? Certainly not me, and (I think) certainly not you.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

God states that nonbelievers will perish.

And they will, but they will not, in eternity, cease to exist.

If they are still around, then they did not perish.

One of you are wrong.

I'll have to side with God.

Easy decision!!

[PinSeeker]

Pinseeker (peace to you), may I ask, did you ever respond to "B" of post 85?

viewtopic.php?p=1002588#1002588

If so, could you point it out or repeat it for me? Thank you!

Quite honestly, Tam, I don't remember whether I did or not. But I'll address it here. You said:

• "...even if your statement was accurate, would not death (as in destruction; annihilation) accomplish a permanent removal from His grace and mercy? In which case, the requirement would be met without eternal torment, yes? So I do not think you have explained how God's justice requires the eternal torment of non-believers."

I certainly mean no offense in saying this, but as has been the case with many posters (but most often with myth-one), your question contains several false assumptions and is misdirected, thus going nowhere. To explain:

I have spent miles of bandwidth (most recently in Posts 143 and 144 in this thread) explaining -- Scripturally -- that true death is spiritual. It is the loss of communion with God, temporally and eternally. I agree with your use of the word 'destruction,' but not in the sense of annihilation, or ceasing to exist -- annihilation is a false conclusion that Scripture does not support in any way whatsoever.

Aside from that, though, while I agree that annihilation would meet the requirement of permanent removal from God's grace and mercy, it would step all over the requirement of eternal punishment, making it not eternal at all, but fleeting... even momentary. And that is most assuredly not Scriptural. Therefore, my agreement with your supposition is of no consequence.

Over and above that, though, it would make God out to be a murderer, which would be a transgression of one of His own Commandments, thus making Himself, by His own standard, a sinner and a hypocrite. And this, of course, is... unspeakable.

And finally, God's justice does not require the eternal "torment" of non-believers, but rather the punishment/judgment -- which is love expressed negatively -- of unrepentant sinners (non-believers). While very real, the torment (anguish, regret, sadness) that unrepentant sinners endure eternally in hell is their own doing, an internal response to having to endure this punishment/judgment.

[PinSeeker]

One of you are wrong.

No, you are.

I'll have to side with God. Easy decision!!

Well it's great -- awesome, even -- that you want to side with God, but I would advise re-evaluating your assumptions of what God's side, at least on this matter, really is...

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Pinseeker (peace to you), may I ask, did you ever respond to "B" of post 85?

viewtopic.php?p=1002588#1002588

If so, could you point it out or repeat it for me? Thank you!

Quite honestly, Tam, I don't remember whether I did or not. But I'll address it here. You said:

• "...even if your statement was accurate, would not death (as in destruction; annihilation) accomplish a permanent removal from His grace and mercy? In which case, the requirement would be met without eternal torment, yes? So I do not think you have explained how God's justice requires the eternal torment of non-believers."

I certainly mean no offense in saying this, but as has been the case with many posters (but most often with myth-one), your question contains several false assumptions and is misdirected, thus going nowhere. To explain:

I have spent miles of bandwidth (most recently in Posts 143 and 144 in this thread) explaining -- Scripturally -- that true death is spiritual. It is the loss of communion with God, temporally and eternally. I agree with your use of the word 'destruction,' but not in the sense of annihilation, or ceasing to exist -- annihilation is a false conclusion that Scripture does not support in any way whatsoever.

So we have already covered this stuff... which led to the question (and request for response) above...

Aside from that, though, while I agree that annihilation would meet the requirement of permanent removal from God's grace and mercy,

Okay then. So we agree that eternal torment is not necessary to meet God's justice (as you have defined it).

it would step all over the requirement of eternal punishment, making it not eternal at all, but fleeting... even momentary.

The punishment (the judgment) of death (cessation of existence) is permanent.

No need for people to have to endure a living torment for all eternity.

And that is most assuredly not Scriptural.

Not according to the interpretation of scripture that you adhere to, sure. But that is not the same as saying it is not scriptural.

Therefore, my agreement with your supposition is of no consequence.

It is consequential. Hence, you are now adding other reasons to your original response.

Over and above that, though, it would make God out to be a murderer,

It most certainly would not. Life is a gift, eternal life is a gift. We are not owed eternal life.

Murder is the unlawful taking of a life.

Did you mean to suggest that a Judge handing out a death sentence for a crime (according to the law) is committing murder?

which would be a transgression of one of His own Commandments,

Was Israel committing murder any time someone was sentenced to death (according to the law)?

thus making Himself, by His own standard, a sinner and a hypocrite. And this, of course, is... unspeakable.

I'm curious. Have you ever used this reasoning before (annihilation cannot be true because it would make God a murderer) or was it just in response to our exchange? I have certainly never heard this reason being given before (not by you or anyone else, here or anywhere else).


In answer though:

God is not a sinner; thus He is not a hypocrite if He sentences someone to death. A hypocrite would be holding others to a standard that you yourself cannot uphold.

God is the Judge. The only one (other than Christ) who CAN judge (without bringing judgment upon themselves).

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Yes?

God is without sin.


You might wish to rethink your reasoning here, Pinseeker.

And finally, God's justice does not require the eternal "torment" of non-believers, but rather the punishment/judgment -- which is love expressed negatively

Love expressed negatively would be hate, would it not?


Discipline is from love (even punishment as an synonym for discipline) - but discipline has a purpose for the person being disciplined: to TEACH them, to help them to do BETTER, to REFINE them.


But eternal unending punishment - wherein the people being punished can never be free of their torment - serves no purpose for that person. None at all. Because even if they did learn from their punishment, that punishment will continue without end. And if they are incapable of learning from that punishment, then punishment serves no purpose.


God has much more wisdom than that.

-- of unrepentant sinners (non-believers). While very real, the torment (anguish, regret, sadness) that unrepentant sinners endure eternally in hell is their own doing, an internal response to having to endure this punishment/judgment.

If they are unrepentant, why would they care that God removed them from His presence? Why would they be sad?


Or did you mean jealous?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

Okay then. So we agree that eternal torment is not necessary to meet God's justice.

Sure, but eternal punishment is necessary.

The punishment (the judgment) of death (cessation of existence) is permanent.

LOL! Cessation of existence, were it a reality, would be permanent, that's for sure.

No need for people to have to endure a living torment for all eternity.

But it is absolutely necessary that some endure punishment for all eternity; Gad has made that abundantly clear. Again, the torment within the punished themselves is only a by-product of that punishment. You understand, I'm sure.

Therefore, my agreement with your supposition is of no consequence.

It is consequential. Hence, you are now adding other reasons to your original response.

No and no. It is not consequential, because your supposition is baseless. Cessation of existence is not what happens to the unrepentant. There is absolutely no Scriptural support for it. It's a heresy. You disagree, and that's unfortunate, but as a result, any comment on my part regarding your supposition would be mere conjecture and inconsequential.

Life is a gift, eternal life is a gift. We are not owed eternal life. Murder is the unlawful taking of a life.

I agree with both of these things, of course.

God is not a sinner...

Of course not. Thank you for reiterating what I just said.

He is not a hypocrite if He sentences someone to death.

Agreed. But your understanding of what death is -- both the first and the second -- is wrong. And that's the point.

You might wish to rethink your reasoning here, Pinseeker.

Much the same to you, Tam.

Love expressed negatively would be hate, would it not?

Yes, but love expressed negatively is still love, Tam. Hate is not the opposite of love. Total disregard -- not caring -- is the opposite of love.

But eternal unending punishment - wherein the people being punished can never be free of their torment - serves no purpose for that person.

This is only your opinion, and very much flawed at that.

...even if they did learn from their punishment, that punishment will continue without end.

Absolutely correct.

And if they are incapable of learning from that punishment, then punishment serves no purpose.

Absolutely incorrect.

God has much more wisdom than that.

Well, God has much more -- infinitely more -- wisdom than that of anyone (or everyone) of this world. And the wisdom of this world is not really wisdom at all; true wisdom is from above.

If they are unrepentant, why would they care that God removed them from His presence? Why would they be sad?

Because obviously -- from the parable of Luke 16 -- they will be acutely aware of what they could have had -- so much so that they will wish that others be warned so that those others not suffer the same "flame." And they will wish to be relieved of their anguish, if even for a moment.

Or did you mean jealous?

Nope. Didn't mean jealous. Nope.

Grace and peace to you, Tam.

[myth-one.com]

Over and above that, though, it would make God out to be a murderer, which would be a transgression of one of His own Commandments, thus making Himself, by His own standard, a sinner and a hypocrite. And this, of course, is... unspeakable.

God is simply honoring everyone's individual choice:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Every individual human must accept everlasting life or everlasting death.

Those are the only choices. One or the other.

God will honor everyone's choice, and not force everlasting existence on anyone who does not desire it.

Why do you consider that murder?