Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[showme]

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

[When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29]

Mt 5:5 & Psalm 37 states only that the "humble" will inherit the land". They do not say which land is stipulated, as in Ez 37:25, or how long they shall live. Psalm 37:9 starts out with "evil doers will be cut off". One might want to investigate what the term "evil doers" represents. If it refers to sinners, transgressors of the law, then "We" may not be among the "humble".

[showme]

[Replying to post 1519 by Checkpoint]

The harvest Jesus describes in Matthew 13 is not taking place, or beginning to, now. It will not do so before his visible return.

That is not merely my opinion, it is what Scripture says, over and over

The "harvest" of Matthew 13 starts "first" with gathering out the "tares" (Matthew 13:30), and is done by way of "the angels" (Matthew 13:39). As for the "tribulation" (Matthew 24:4), it started a long time ago. The "falling away" (Mt 24:10) started with Peter (Matthew 26:31-33). As for the coming of the "Son of Man", well, It will be "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29). At that time you will have the judgment between the faithful and unfaithful (Matthew 24:45). We are at the "end of the age" when the angels will start gathering out the wicked from the righteous (Matthew 13;49). It might be beneficial to know the difference between wicked and righteous (Malachi 3:18).

[Checkpoint]

The harvest Jesus describes in Matthew 13 is not taking place, or beginning to, now.

In your opinion.

It will not do so before his visible return.

How do you know that?

That is ... what Scripture says, over and over.

Perhaps you would like to list those many scriptures?

Perhaps. Just a few for now.

Matthew 25:31-45; Matthew 13:47-50
Revelation 14:14-20.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1524 by PinSeeker]

You are all poring unnecessarily over words, really. Not to be disparaging, but it is what it is. There is both an immediate and an ultimate sense regarding the harvest:

here's really no need for this disagreement. Neither the immediate nor the ultimate should be disregarded or soft-pedaled in any way.

Good advice perhaps, but not really applicable in this case.

This debate, you see, Pinseeker, has not been about immediate vs ultimate, but about the time the ultimate begins, or takes place.

None of us are looking at or citing the immediate you have explained.

What has made this so debatable is the JW assertion that this ultimate harvest began in 1914.

Grace and peace to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

It will not do so before his visible return.

Matthew 25:31-45; Matthew 13:47-50
Revelation 14:14-20.

No none of those scriptures say that the harvest season/time starts "after his visible return". Indeed I don't think the words "after visible return" can be found anywhere in the bible.

Please show me the exact words you said in the bible.

[...]Those are your terms, not those of scripture... I am uncomfortable with any term that others use that is non-biblical.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

What has made this so debatable is the JW assertion that this ultimate harvest began in 1914..

Where did anyone say the word "ultimate" indeed where did you read any witness say "the ultimate harvest began in 1914"? You say you are "uncomfortable with non-biblical terms" yet you seem comfortable with the ideas of "immediate vs ultimate" harvests, where are the terms "immediate harvest" and "ultimate harvest" in scripture?

Most Jehovahs Witnesses are very careful about how they word things, kindly refrain from attributing words that were not said by us to us.

The harvest time is the time leading up to the Great Tribulation, which we are living in now. It coincides with "the time of the end" of Daniel 12:4 & 9.

Matthew 13:

30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

39 The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

[PinSeeker]

This debate, you see, Pinseeker, has not been about immediate vs ultimate, but about the time the ultimate begins, or takes place. None of us are looking at or citing the immediate you have explained.

Okay, fine. Carry on, then.

What has made this so debatable is the JW assertion that this ultimate harvest began in 1914.

Yes, that's a problem.

It will not do so before his visible return. Matthew 25:31-45; Matthew 13:47-50; Revelation 14:14-20.

No none of those scriptures say that the harvest season/time starts "after his visible return". Indeed I don't think the words "after visible return" can be found anywhere in the bible. Please show me the exact words you said in the bible.

There is no need. The idea -- truth -- that this ultimate harvest commences at His visible return is clearly and unequivocally conveyed throughout Scripture. He will return at the end of the Church Age. The Judgment is what is very clearly in view in Revelation 14:14-20. The images of:

• * "one like a son of man" (Jesus)...
  
  * "seated on a cloud" (sitting in power, authority, and judgment)...
  
  * "with a golden crown on His head" (conveying His Kingship, righteousness, authority, and judgeship)...
  
  * "a sharp sickle in His hand" (instrument of division and separation), and...
  
  * "swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped" (totality and finality of the action)...

... are unmistakable. Further, verses 14-16 refer to believers, whom He will gather to Himself for Himself once and for all, and verses 17-20 refer to unbelievers, or the wicked, the unrepentant.

Those are your terms, not those of scripture... I am uncomfortable with any term that others use that is non-biblical.

We (you and your Jehovah's Witness brethren, also) use our own words to describe what is very clearly described by others, both spoken and in print -- and, relevant to this discussion, by God in His Word -- all the time. Yes, sometimes, we can be incorrect in our application, but here, that is very clearly not the case. The exact words "Christ will return in 1914" are not found anywhere in the Bible, either, you know...

Grace and peace to you both (and all).

[PinSeeker]

... you seem comfortable with the ideas of "immediate vs ultimate" harvests, where are the terms "immediate harvest" and "immediate harvest" in scripture?

The idea of the now, which denotes immediacy, and not yet, which denotes a future full realization, are very clear in Scripture.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[JehovahsWitness]

... you seem comfortable with the ideas of "immediate vs ultimate" harvests, where are the terms "immediate harvest" and "immediate harvest" in scripture?

The idea of the now, which denotes immediacy, and not yet, which denotes a future full realization, are very clear in Scripture.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

I was asking Checkpoint because his standard seems to demand one doesnt employ any terms that are direct quotes from scripture.

[...]Those are your terms, not those of scripture... I am uncomfortable with any term that others use that is non-biblical.

If you feel this is an unnecessary constraint may I suggest you take that up directly with the person who expressed the sentiment.


Regards,

JW

[PinSeeker]

• JW wrote:
  I was asking Checkpoint because his standard seems to demand one doesnt employ any terms that are direct quotes from scripture.

It seems to me you do the same. You did say in Post 1529 the following:

• "No none of those scriptures say that the harvest season/time starts "after his visible return". Indeed I don't think the words "after visible return" can be found anywhere in the bible. Please show me the exact words you said in the bible."

Perhaps you made an HTML error, and that quote was actually made by Checkpoint, but that's directly contrary to the appearance of that post.

• JW wrote:
  If you feel this is an unnecessary constraint may I suggest you take that up directly with the person who expressed the sentiment.

Maybe I will at some point, but I'm addressing you right now. You seem to have expressed the same sentiment -- the requiring of exact words -- in 1529.

Grace and peace to you.