Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION #1: "At that time" refers to the specific harvest time that begins immediately after the growth time is ended by his instruction to the harvesters.

QUESTION #2: a) before the harvest he names "the harvest'.

Your "harvest time" includes what Jesus, in saying "at that time", verse 30, specifically excludes when he says "let both grow together until the harvest".

Ok well maybe I didn't express myself clearly we believe that the "growing" take place before the harvest and that expression "At that time" refers to the specific harvest time that begins immediately after said growth time is ended.

What did Jesus say would be the activities "at that time" of the harvest?

a) collect the weeds and bind them

b) gather the wheat into my storehouse

To harvest to is gather that which has grown; where they are gathered to depends on the farmer but rarely would a farmer gather his crop and just leave it outside. This is because left to the elemnts the mature the harvest would rot. In short part of the harvest is as the song goes "bringing in the sheaves" gathering the desirable crop to a place of protection.

Hope that helps,


JW

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 1517 by JehovahsWitness]

It is called harvest time because it is a period marked by a spiritual harvest of Christs remaining anointed brothers (meaning a gathering of spirit anointed born again Christians firstly into his congregation and then later to his side in heaven).

Then you must not mean to suggest that this gathering began in 1914. Because, as my Lord has reminded me, He has been gathering His chosen ones into His congregation (His Church) for the last two millennia.



1Corinthians 12:27
Colossians 1:18, 24
Ephesians 1:22, 23




Peace again to you (and to you all),
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them
in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

QUESTION #1: "At that time" refers to the specific harvest time that begins immediately after the growth time is ended by his instruction to the harvesters.

Do you think there is point in discussing anything temporal in figurative illustration? Obviously he will NOT tell the harvesters, since they are not harvesters. He is employing figurative language, presumably to stay deliberately vague; so trying to extract time and place from poetry is a tough and unrewarding task. Clarity wasn't one of Christ's best features. Ergo much debate.

Hi Marco,

Yes, I do.

Your assessment of this discussion reflects the position you hold regarding fact and faith.

You presume figurative language is employed "to stay deliberately vague", and find it to be lacking clarity, and therefore, for you, it "is a tough and unrewarding task".

Well, I guess that is to be expected, from anyone who considers God to be a figment, Jesus to be a failure, and the Bible to largely be fiction.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1555 by JehovahsWitness]

k well maybe I didn't express myself clearly we believe that the "growing" take place before the harvest and that expression "At that time" refers to the specific harvest time that begins immediately after said growth time is ended.

Hope that helps.

Just a little.

This, from you, is clear:

MATTHEW 13:30, 39-43 * [It is called harvest time because it is a period marked by a spiritual harvest

H*
A (#1 First collect /identification of the "weeds" (imitation Christians) v41
R
V (#2 then, the gathering the wheat (true Christians: Christs remaining anointed brothers .
E [...] a gathering of spirit anointed born again Christians
S into the "storehouses" (the organised Christian congregation v30) firstly into his congregation

And then/ /then later ...

All that you have described before "then later", is not included by Jesus in this the only harvest in this parable.

It has no such "then later"/"spiritual harvest period" aspects in the only harvest he named.

Which is about only similar to what you suggested after writing "then later".

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1558 by Checkpoint]

I'm getting rather dizzy trying to follow the lines of thinking being presented here. What difference does it make if Jesus started ruling in 1914? What difference does it make if he was separating sheep and goats during the last days or right at the end? It doesn't really matter, in the scheme of things.

One thing is certain: Jesus is coming to get rid of the incorrigibly wicked and to bind Satan for a thousand years, thus beginning a time of peace and security and unimaginable happiness. We merely have to be ready for this event and in the meantime do our best to imitate him and uphold his Father's Sovereignty.


.

[Checkpoint]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 1517 by JehovahsWitness]

It is called harvest time because it is a period marked by a spiritual harvest of Christs remaining anointed brothers (meaning a gathering of spirit anointed born again Christians firstly into his congregation and then later to his side in heaven).

Then you must not mean to suggest that this gathering began in 1914. Because, as my Lord has reminded me, He has been gathering His chosen ones into His congregation (His Church) for the last two millennia.



1Corinthians 12:27
Colossians 1:18, 24
Ephesians 1:22, 23




Peace again to you (and to you all),
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Hello there tammy,

..."and it was so"...gathering and reaping, that is, from the time of Christ.

He told of it, had the authority needed, and churches grew just fine from the start, nearly 2000 years ago, and they're still going strong.

John 4:
35 Dont you have a saying, Its still four months until harvest? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest.
36 Even now the one who reaps draws a wage and harvests a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.

37 Thus the saying One sows and another reaps is true.
38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.

Matthew 28:
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Acts 2:
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.

44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.
45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

The Lord bless and keep you, Tam.[/i]

[JehovahsWitness]

MATTHEW 13:30, 39-43 * [It is called harvest time because it is a period marked by a spiritual harvest

H*
A (#1 First collect /identification of the "weeds" (imitation Christians) v41
R
V (#2 then, the gathering the wheat (true Christians: Christs remaining anointed brothers .
E [...] a gathering of spirit anointed born again Christians
S into the "storehouses" (the organised Christian congregation v30) firstly into his congregation
T



And then/ /then later ...

the burning of the "weeds" (v42) (destruction of imitation christianity) and the shining in the kingdom (return of Christ with his 144,000 brothers in kingdom glory [at] his side in heaven v43)

JW

All that you have described before "then later", is not included by Jesus in this the only harvest in this parable.

I dont understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that...

a) NONE of the elements I have mentioned (the collecting of the weeds, the gathering and transport of the wheat ...) are actually is in the parable?

or simply ...

b) that the elements that I mentioned are indeed in the parable but you disagree with the interpretation ?

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

It has no such "then later"/"spiritual harvest period" aspects in the only harvest he named.

Well the whole chart is covering the events of the "harvest period(or season)" .

For more on whether it is accurate to refer to a harvest period /season see post #1512
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 70#1010870

When I say it's a "spiritual" harvest I mean it's not a literal harvest of plants but a harvest related to spiritual matters (things related to the spirit world).


THEN LATER

The expression "then later" was not used to indicate that there are two harvests described nor to imply the subseqnent events are outside of the "harvest period" (see above). But to harvest is literally to collect from the point of growth, so harvesting apples for example would only apply literally to when you pick the apple off of the tree. Of course "a harvest" usually includes to what we *do* with the product, thus our speakjng of a harvest season. For more on what is done with the produce see post above
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#1011815


Obviously if the weeds are gathered FIRST (Jesus words) and they are bound those two things happened chronologically before being burnt. My "then later" simply refers to the subsequent actions/events in terms of chronological order. The weeds are not burnt before they are collected, they were not burnt while simultaneously being bundled, they are collected -> bound and then burnt.

#collected
#2 bundled
... and then later (chronologically after steps 1 &2 )
#3 burnt

Hope that clarifies things,


JW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1558 by Checkpoint]

I'm getting rather dizzy trying to follow the lines of thinking being presented here. What difference does it make if Jesus started ruling in 1914? What difference does it make if he was separating sheep and goats during the last days or right at the end? It doesn't really matter, in the scheme of things.

One thing is certain: Jesus is coming to get rid of the incorrigibly wicked and to bind Satan for a thousand years, thus beginning a time of peace and security and unimaginable happiness. We merely have to be ready for this event and in the meantime do our best to imitate him and uphold his Father's Sovereignty.

Yes, this current debate is a somewhat dizzying experience "trying to follow the line of thinking being presented here".

But perhaps what you have just said about 1914 takes the cake. It makes a huge difference to every JW.

Yes, Jesus is coming to end this old order/system of things, by destroying every enemy, including Satan and death.
Thus, God will then make all things new, an eternity with unimaginable happiness for all who will be there.

Acts 3:21
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. a

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you wait eagerly for the day of God to come. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

13 But, in keeping with his promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

[Checkpoint]

MATTHEW 13:30, 39-43 * [It is called harvest time because it is a period marked by a spiritual harvest

H*
A (#1 First collect /identification of the "weeds" (imitation Christians) v41
R
V (#2 then, the gathering the wheat (true Christians: Christs remaining anointed brothers .
E [...] a gathering of spirit anointed born again Christians
S into the "storehouses" (the organised Christian congregation v30) firstly into his congregation
T



And then/ /then later ...

the burning of the "weeds" (v42) (destruction of imitation christianity) and the shining in the kingdom (return of Christ with his 144,000 brothers in kingdom glory [at] his side in heaven v43)

JW

All that you have described before "then later", is not included by Jesus in this the only harvest in this parable.

I dont understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that...

a) NONE of the elements I have mentioned (the collecting of the weeds, the gathering and transport of the wheat ...) are actually is in the parable?

or simply ...

b) that the elements that I mentioned are indeed in the parable but you disagree with the interpretation ?

JW

a) I disagree with their inclusion at all.

Where are they anywhere in the parable or his explanation of each element?