Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[Elijah John]

So, as you see it, he will return some time in the future?

If he was in error as to the time, could he not also be in error in his whole claim that he will return?

If not, why not, EJ?

Yes, that is a possibility. Jesus could be wrong or the Bible could be wrong.

But time has already proven Jesus (or the Bible) wrong about his predicted return in the lifetime of his apostles.

But I'm of an open mind as to whether he will return some day in the future. Many of those "generation" verses you provided seem to indicate that he will, at some point.

But all this speculation about "end times" stuff seems fairly irrelevant as to how a believer ought to live their life in the here and now.

[Monta]

[Replying to Elijah John]


"You'll note the Ascension had nothing to do with "repaying everyone for what they have done".

***At the Ascenston the risen Christ established new laws for the new dispensation: 'you reap as yu sow' etc.

"Yet, the 2nd coming is all about Divine reward and retribution."

***Second Coming is not talked about in the quoted scripture, it is your personal nput. Reward and retribution, we are living it every day, we are building our eternal destiny ea day.

"The disciples in Jesus hearing have all passed on. And Jesus has still not returned".

*** Many vouch that He has but not in the way many would want.

[Monta]

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

Good question. The things which were supposed to be fullfilled were:

For the son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what they have done.

(Matthew 16.27)

Sure sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

Jesus said in the next verse that

some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

(Matthew 16.28)

Well, the disciples all died, and Jesus has not come back...yet.

Just because it SOUNDS like 2nd coming but nothing to say it is right?
Second verse is spot on; the Son of Man came into his kingdom at the acension as witnessed by many - "I go the my Father".

RESPONSE:

First of all the Matthew 16:28 clearly has Jesus "coming in his kingdom" while some members of his generation have 'not tasted death' that is they are still alive.

What "second verse" are you talking about? Does it contradict Matthew 16:28? If you are claiming so, provide your evidence please.

Some Bible fundamentalists and literalists try to avoid the fact that Matt 16:28 is clearly in error. There was no "second coming" during Jesus' generation, pure and simple.

I am far from being a fundamentalist.
By second verse came from the quote I was responding to.
As I said, Jesus is in His kingdome where else would He be??

Matthew 16:28 "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not ...
New International Version "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

I can't see Second Coming mentioned.

[polonius]

What are those things which were supposed to be fullfilled but were not; or were they, or... What is the end argument here.

Good question. The things which were supposed to be fullfilled were:

For the son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what they have done.

(Matthew 16.27)

Sure sounds like the 2nd coming to me.

Jesus said in the next verse that

some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

(Matthew 16.28)

Well, the disciples all died, and Jesus has not come back...yet.

Just because it SOUNDS like 2nd coming but nothing to say it is right?
Second verse is spot on; the Son of Man came into his kingdom at the acension as witnessed by many - "I go the my Father".

RESPONSE:

First of all the Matthew 16:28 clearly has Jesus "coming in his kingdom" while some members of his generation have 'not tasted death' that is they are still alive.

What "second verse" are you talking about? Does it contradict Matthew 16:28? If you are claiming so, provide your evidence please.

Some Bible fundamentalists and literalists try to avoid the fact that Matt 16:28 is clearly in error. There was no "second coming" during Jesus' generation, pure and simple.

I am far from being a fundamentalist.
By second verse came from the quote I was responding to.
As I said, Jesus is in His kingdome where else would He be??

Matthew 16:28 "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not ...
New International Version "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

I can't see Second Coming mentioned.

RESPONSE: It's based on the plain meaning of words.

"...before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

"Before" Hence Jesus was not in is second coming when he made such a statement.

See also. 1 Thess 4

"5 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.[j] 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.

[Elijah John]

I can't see Second Coming mentioned.

RESPONSE: It's based on the plain meaning of words.

"...before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

"Before" Hence Jesus was not in is second coming when he made such a statement.

See also. 1 Thess 4

"5 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.[j] 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.

Good points, and those in conjunction with Matthew 16.27, when Jesus speaks of the Son of Man coming to repay everyone for what they have done speaks to Divine reward and retribution. Divine reward and retribution is thought to occur at the 2nd coming.

Hasn't happened yet, and the apostles all have long since perished.

[Monta]

[Replying to polonius.advice]


"5 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.[j] 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."

All this is happening on the spiritual level

when a person wakes up from being dead in darkness and is born into the Light. The Lord reveals Himself through his truth. That is how Christians have their assurance and they are in the Lord's Kingdom 'as in heaven so upon the earth'.

We all know that the Lord is omnipresent. That He descends was a way of saying something that would make sense to some but thinking deeper we know if He is omniprent there is no phisical descent except that He comes down to a lower level in order to make Himself known.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 165 by Elijah John]



QUESTION: But did not Jesus say (in Matthew 16 verse 27) that he would "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners?

No he did not. Neither did he imply it. A careful reading of the text reveals that the only thing he promised those "standing with him" in the first century was that some standing with him at the moment he was speaking those particular words, they would see "the son of man coming in his kingdom" nothing more was promised for that epoch.

MATTHEW 16: 27, 28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... w+16:27-28

In the above verses we see Jesus make a prediction (prophecy) in verse 27 and a promise (v 28). We note that this was not during the course of a conversation with the general public or with those he referred to as "a wicked generation" but during a private conversation with some of his intimate associates.

The prophecy has two features (a) and (b)...

v 27: (a) 'the son of man [coming]" followed by (b) reward for "each person" / "everyone" (JB) according or their deeds (other bibles render the same idea he will "judge all people" (NLT).

Jesus then goes on to make a second promise something specifically to those standing with them, ie

v 28: Some standing with him (Jesus) would not die before the would "see" - NOT the judgement of everyone (b) but only the "Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (a). Note that Jesus didn't say (as he had on other occassions) will see "all these things", rather he was somewhat selective about his promise specifically chosing just one thing that they would see notably kingdom glory and omitting and reference to seeing the judgement and rewarding of humanity.

To illustrate: A father explains that the following week there will be a transmission of the Superbowl (sports event) and adds and then there will be a movie. The father then says the following "Truly my son, you will be permitted to see the "the superbowl". Can the son complain that his father broke his promise to let him watch the late night movie that was AFTER the superbowl?

In a similar way, a careful reading of the text shows Jesus' disciples should not have expected to see anything more than what was promised ie "the son of man coming" and certainly there is no reason to conclude that Jesus promised first century disciples would see the final judgement of mankind or that that promise "failed".

Further reading
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102013268#h=24




OBJECTION: But did not Jesus mention the global judgement and the coming of the kingdom in the same paragraph? Can we not conclude "same paragraph, same subject"

This is not only nonsense logic, it is grammatically nonsense logic. Firstly the bible text wasn't originally broken into paragraphs, the paragraphs (like the punctuation) we see in our English bibles remains at the discretion of the individual translator. Further that two elements appear together doesn't mean both are necessarily the object of a given verb; their proximity may be indicative (depending on the structure of the language) but it is the grammatical rules that govern the language that determines the object of a verb not the placement.

To illustrate: I intend to kick my dog and then make love to my wife. Truly I tell you, posters in this forum, you will not die before you see me do the kicking. Does that fact that the kicking of the dog and the making love to the wife are two connected events (in the same line/paragraph) mean you have been promised to see both?

In a similar way, Jesus mentioned two connected events together but only one of those was the object of his promise.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE GENTILE TIMES , THE LAST DAYS and ...THE GENERATION

GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 167 by JehovahsWitness]





[center]They're still alive.
Part One[/center]

QUESTION: But did not Jesus say (in Matthew 16 verse 27) that he would "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners?

No he did not. Neither did he imply it. A careful reading of the text reveals that the only thing he promised those "standing with him" in the first century was that some standing with him at the moment he was speaking those particular words, they would see "the son of man coming in his kingdom" nothing more was promised for that epoch.

MATTHEW 16: 27, 28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... w+16:27-28

So, the guys who Jesus was talking to are still alive today?
Must be old, for sho.