The Abrahamic religions, all three of them, have been directly or indirectly responsible for the great majority of world wars since Constantin made Christianity the Roman Empire's state religion. Christian religious colonists are responsible for the world's largest ethnic holocaust, directly or indirectly killing somewhere between 100 and 300 million Native Americans who were in the way of these European colonial imperialists. For the past 64 years the European Jewish religious colonial enterprise has been systematically eliminating indigenous Palestinian Arab peoples from Palestine in the Ashkenazim's goal of complete takeover of Palestine and remake into Israel, that enterprise being foisted on the world via Western powers winning WW II and setting up their European colony, Israel, in the heart of the Middle East using their newly created United Nations to fool the world. (The Partition of Palestine completely violated the U.N.'s Charter protecting the right of self-determination for indigenous populations). In other words, a crime against humanity has been falsely legitimatized and still we protect the culprits. Even doing so on these Internet discussion forums where monitors at the helm will block anyone protesting Abrahamic religious abuses and crimes against humanity.
What are we told? "People are free to critique any religion on this forum. There is no special status to any religion. However, what is prohibited are inflammatory language, blanket generalizations, and uncivil remarks."
In other words, if you do point out the specific crimes being perpetrated by, say, Jews supporting Israel of ethnic genocide, you get the warnings even though a former U.S. President agrees with my assessment of racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing being at the heart of Israeli settlement building. Still, we can't talk about this lest it be taken as "blanket generalization", "uncivil remarks". A stance similar in ethics to the Nazis labeling anyone who defied their aggression and occupation as "terrorists". .
I expect more from "Debating Christianity & Religion" than this Debasing Christianity and Religion with kow-towing to evil acts that come dressed up in religious form.
Why do we give a moral pass to unethical Abrahamic religions
Moderator: Moderators
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arielmessenger
- Banned
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:14 am
- Location: Northern California
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cnorman18
Post #21
If the "innocent" Palestinian "freedom fighters" are "resisting foreign invasion and occupation" -- leaving aside all the INCONTROVERTIBLE FACTS I have posted proving that that "invasion" NEVER HAPPENED as you continue to portray it --
WHY DO THEY "FIGHT" BY DELIBERATELY TARGETING WOMEN AND CHILDREN WITH MISSILES AND SUICIDE BOMBS? That is not "fighting." That is MURDER.
Does your friend Sami support the mass murder of civilian noncombatants by suicide bomb, or does he speak out against it? YOU have never admitted that there IS such a thing.
Why can't you at least address all the HISTORY I've posted, instead of just IGNORING it or pretending it's "Zionist propaganda," which it is not? For example:
Have there not been Jews in Palestine since Roman times? Yes or no?
Were the Jews not LEGALLY BUYING land in Palestine from the 1880s onward? Yes or no?
Were the Jews not the LARGEST GROUP in the parts of Palestine that became Israel BEFORE the partition? Yes or no?
Were Jews not forcibly driven from ancient Jewish villages in the West Bank after partition? Yes or no?
Is all this just "Zionist propaganda"? Lies? Why are so reluctant to even ACKNOWLEDGE it, never mind post some REBUTTAL or REFUTATION of it?
Who cares about Moses and the Exodus? We're talking about 1948, are we not?
Once again: if you want to debate, DEBATE. Address the arguments and FACTS I have posted. Just dismissing them as "propaganda" holds no credibility at all. PROVE it.
And most of all, answer this: Do you, or do you not, advocate the complete eradication of the Jewish state and the expulsion or extermination of every Jew in the Middle East? That is the stated goal of the TERRORIST organizations that you hail as "freedom fighters." If yes, why do you expect the Israelis -- many of whom have been there for many generations, some since Roman times, many more since the 1880s -- to give up without a fight?
WHY DO THEY "FIGHT" BY DELIBERATELY TARGETING WOMEN AND CHILDREN WITH MISSILES AND SUICIDE BOMBS? That is not "fighting." That is MURDER.
Does your friend Sami support the mass murder of civilian noncombatants by suicide bomb, or does he speak out against it? YOU have never admitted that there IS such a thing.
Why can't you at least address all the HISTORY I've posted, instead of just IGNORING it or pretending it's "Zionist propaganda," which it is not? For example:
Have there not been Jews in Palestine since Roman times? Yes or no?
Were the Jews not LEGALLY BUYING land in Palestine from the 1880s onward? Yes or no?
Were the Jews not the LARGEST GROUP in the parts of Palestine that became Israel BEFORE the partition? Yes or no?
Were Jews not forcibly driven from ancient Jewish villages in the West Bank after partition? Yes or no?
Is all this just "Zionist propaganda"? Lies? Why are so reluctant to even ACKNOWLEDGE it, never mind post some REBUTTAL or REFUTATION of it?
Who cares about Moses and the Exodus? We're talking about 1948, are we not?
Once again: if you want to debate, DEBATE. Address the arguments and FACTS I have posted. Just dismissing them as "propaganda" holds no credibility at all. PROVE it.
And most of all, answer this: Do you, or do you not, advocate the complete eradication of the Jewish state and the expulsion or extermination of every Jew in the Middle East? That is the stated goal of the TERRORIST organizations that you hail as "freedom fighters." If yes, why do you expect the Israelis -- many of whom have been there for many generations, some since Roman times, many more since the 1880s -- to give up without a fight?
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cnorman18
Post #22
Something I wrote a long time ago might be adaptable to this "debate":
Please notice that the subject here is NOT Arielmessenger's personality or personal character, nor his motivations, nor anything that pertains to him personally in any way; it is not even about his views or opinions. It is about nothing but his ARGUMENTS, his TACTICS in DEBATE, and whether or not he actually ENGAGES in debate at all.
First, let's review the facts and arguments that Arielmessenger refuses to allow into these discussions. Remember, now; Arielmessenger has seen these facts and arguments many times; but he consistently refuses to acknowledge that he even knows of them, never mind responding to them or actually debating the points.
(1) The decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder
From reading Arielmessenger's posts, one would never know that there has ever been a single Israeli civilian murdered by a single Palestinian terrorist attack. He has never so much as alluded to any of these wrong and inarguably unlawful acts on the part of Israel's enemies. Not once. He has never acknowledged nor responded to arguments citing the HUNDREDS of deliberately planned and executed mass murders of civilian noncombatants, a terror campaign spanning DECADES, even one single time. He absolutely implies by his silence that no such murders have ever occurred, and/or that this relentless campaign of deliberately targeting innocents is entirely irrelevant to this debate. The Palestinian terrorists themselves proudly proclaim their responsibility for these callous murders and openly celebrate them as courageous, noble, and even sacred acts; but according to Arielmessenger, they have never happened. As with all the rest of these, he even refuses to acknowledge my repeated criticisms of his posts in this regard.
(2) The responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics
From reading Arielmessenger's posts, one would conclude that Israeli troops indiscriminately seek out and murder Palestinian civilians for no reason other than sheer sadistic evil. Arielmessenger not only avoids mentioning any provocation, motivation, or reason for Israeli actions (e.g. specific terrorist attacks), but also carefully avoids mentioning the FACT that the Palestinian terrorists themselves deliberately place their own civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes as a matter of set policy -- an acknowledged WAR CRIME that has even been cited, though only occasionally and tepidly, by the UN. Arielmessenger has, again, never once acknowledged or responded to these facts and arguments, nor to the observation that he consistently refuses to debate them.
(3) The openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast
According to Arielmessenger, these open declarations of total war without restriction, and of the intent to ethnically cleanse the Mideast of Jews, by whatever means necessary, do not exist. On the contrary; The actions of Israel are presented as if they were unmotivated acts of sheer sadistic evil and greed carried out in a vacuum without provocation. He consistently dismisses the very concept of "self-defense" without any attempt to show why it is not entirely applicable. Arielmessenger has never once acknowledged these FACTS, or even acknowledged that he has ever read these arguments. And, yet again, he will not even respond to the factual observation and objection that he refuses to debate these points.
(4) The decades of Government-sponsored and -encouraged old-school Nazi-style antisemitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is continually subjected, which includes Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy (including the Jews being "behind" the 9/11 attacks, which arielmessenger has in fact repeated), the promoting of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic document, and even, incredibly, dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true
According to Arielmessenger, only Jews and Israelis are capable of hate or have ever expressed hatred or advocated violence. He has never once acknowledged the well-established and well-documented FACT of institutional and government-sponsored antisemitism in Arab lands, or the FACT of the widespread teaching of antisemitic hatred and antisemitic (that is, anti-Jew) violence by Muslim religious authorities, beginning with the FACT that the mass murder of Jewish civilians by suicide bomb, women and children explicitly included, is widely taught as a sacred religious act that should be emulated, admired and celebrated by all Muslims. All these charges are very well documented indeed; nevertheless, these, too, are facts and arguments to which Arielmessenger has never once responded, nor so much as acknowledged. Not once, not ever.
(5) The explicitly stated Palestinian goal of the ethnic cleansing of Jews in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea
According to the Palestinian terror organizations, no Jews are to be allowed to live in any prospective Palestinian state in Gaza or the West Bank; in fact, according to the explicit declarations in their charters, no Jews at all should be allowed to live anywhere in the Mideast. Arielmessenger has never so much as alluded to this fact, even after being confronted with it on multiple threads. He has never even acknowledged the openly stated goal of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLO, etc., to rid the entire region of its Jews, even those who have lived there for millenia. Even more incredibly, he has never once explained why this is NOT "ethnic cleansing," even as he accuses the Israelis of that crime -- and, yet again, he has never even acknowledged this criticism of his posts.
(6) The fact that very many Arabs never left Israel at the time of its founding, and many (20% of the Israeli population) live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day
As I have noted many times; Arabs and Muslims live and work in Israel as full citizens, owning land and businesses, buying and selling, VOTING, serving in the Israeli Knesset and the Israeli Army, as attorneys and judges in the Israeli courts, as Israeli government officials and bureaucrats, as Israeli police officers, physicians, emergency personnel, and on and on -- in fact, in every aspect of public and private Israeli life. NONE of this was true of blacks in South Africa, and yet Arielmessenger insists on referring to "Apartheid" as if that term were appropriate, applicable and beyond dispute.
(7) The factual record of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of land for peace
Arielmessenger continually and consistently claims that Israel has illegally seized land from the Palestinians and intends to seize more -- while the actual, factual record shows otherwise. The Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and the Sinai Peninsula all came under Israeli control at the end of the 1967 war, which was explicitly announced in advance by the Arab nations involved to be a "war of annihilation" against Israel; and, even though land acquired in a defensive war may be retained as a matter of settled international law, the Israeli state has repeatedly offered to return ALL of these lands to the nations which attacked it, and/or to the people living in them, in return for nothing but peace. That is absolutely proven by the FACT that the oil-rich Sinai peninsula WAS returned to Egypt in return for a peace treaty which has remained in effect for 30 years. And yet, again, Arielmessenger has never responded to nor acknowledged these facts and arguments, nor to the repeated criticisms of his refusal to do so. Not once, not ever. Whether or not those arguments, or indeed ANY of these arguments, are correct is not the point here: the point is that Arielmessenger never debates them at all and implicitly claims that they don't exist.
(8) The FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict
The false charges of "stolen land" and "illegal occupation" are repeated over and over again, but without any attempt to refute or rebut the case that I have repeatedly made against both in very many threads here. On the contrary: those historically inaccurate and HIGHLY debatable allegations are assumed as matters of proven fact, while the enormous amount of well-established and well-documented evidence against them is summarily dismissed as "Zionist propaganda" without any attempt to actually DEBATE it.
Arielmessenger does not, in short, actually debate issues involving Israel; he propagandizes, and that only. He does not respond to opposing arguments; he does not even admit to having seen any opposing arguments or that opposing arguments exist. He does not debate them, rebut them, or answer them in any way; indeed, he does not even allude to the fact that he has been endlessly criticized for not doing so. His answers, if one can call them such, seem to consist of nothing more than mocking and ridicule. In short, his entire strategy in "debate" on the subject of Israel consists of posting anti-Israel propaganda and carefully avoiding even alluding to opposing arguments and facts -- forget about actually DEBATING them.
For the record, in my five years or so of posting here, I have never denied that there have been atrocities committed by the Israelis, both past and present. I have more than once expressed concern for the Palestinians, and in fact have listed links to dozens of JEWISH and ISRAELI peace organizations committed to ending the Occupation and restoring Palestinian rights. THERE HAVE BEEN SINS AND EVIL ACTS COMMITTED BY BOTH SIDES HERE; but pretending that ALL the evils and atrocities have come from one side, and that the other side is as pure and innocent as the driven snow while its opposition is wholly evil and pernicious -- because of its evil religion, no less -- is neither fair, nor accurate, nor anything approaching meaningful discussion of the subject.
Is there a wall separating Palestinian land from Israeli land, which often keeps peaceful Palestinians from reaching their own land or work? Yes, there is, and that is wrong; but it is DISHONEST to deliberately omit and suppress the FACT that the wall was erected to make terrorist attacks, such as mass murder by suicide bomb, more difficult.
To take a few more examples that have not yet arisen on this thread: Have Palestinian ambulances been stopped and searched, delaying medical care for Palestinians? Yes, they have, and that is wrong; but it is also necessary, because the FACT is that this is done because Palestinian terrorists have VERY OFTEN used ambulances to transport explosives, weapons, and fighters (which is an acknowledge WAR CRIME, defined as such by the Geneva Convention).
Are pregnant Palestinian women in labor stopped and searched by Israeli authorities? Yes, they are, and that is WRONG; but it is again necessary, because Palestinian suicide bombers have OFTEN disguised themselves as pregnant women in labor (the target implications of that tactic can be left to the imagination).
Have the Israelis sometimes overstepped even their legitimate need for security precautions and committed atrocities that are NOT justifiable? Yes, they certainly have; but once again, it is WRONG to deliberately omit the willful, deliberate and calculated targeting of innocent civilian noncombatants by Palestinian terrorists as a matter of conscious, set policy.
There is, absolutely inarguably, blame for BOTH SIDES here. To heap ALL the blame onto one side and to deny that ANY blame remains for the other is simply dishonest, as well as NOT conducive to any kind of productive peace process.
A definition might be helpful here (emphasis added):
This seems clear enough. The pure demonization of one side and the canonization of the other is not truthful, is not accurate, and is not productive. Neither is it ETHICAL, to use a word favored by arielmessenger.
Please notice that the subject here is NOT Arielmessenger's personality or personal character, nor his motivations, nor anything that pertains to him personally in any way; it is not even about his views or opinions. It is about nothing but his ARGUMENTS, his TACTICS in DEBATE, and whether or not he actually ENGAGES in debate at all.
First, let's review the facts and arguments that Arielmessenger refuses to allow into these discussions. Remember, now; Arielmessenger has seen these facts and arguments many times; but he consistently refuses to acknowledge that he even knows of them, never mind responding to them or actually debating the points.
(1) The decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder
From reading Arielmessenger's posts, one would never know that there has ever been a single Israeli civilian murdered by a single Palestinian terrorist attack. He has never so much as alluded to any of these wrong and inarguably unlawful acts on the part of Israel's enemies. Not once. He has never acknowledged nor responded to arguments citing the HUNDREDS of deliberately planned and executed mass murders of civilian noncombatants, a terror campaign spanning DECADES, even one single time. He absolutely implies by his silence that no such murders have ever occurred, and/or that this relentless campaign of deliberately targeting innocents is entirely irrelevant to this debate. The Palestinian terrorists themselves proudly proclaim their responsibility for these callous murders and openly celebrate them as courageous, noble, and even sacred acts; but according to Arielmessenger, they have never happened. As with all the rest of these, he even refuses to acknowledge my repeated criticisms of his posts in this regard.
(2) The responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics
From reading Arielmessenger's posts, one would conclude that Israeli troops indiscriminately seek out and murder Palestinian civilians for no reason other than sheer sadistic evil. Arielmessenger not only avoids mentioning any provocation, motivation, or reason for Israeli actions (e.g. specific terrorist attacks), but also carefully avoids mentioning the FACT that the Palestinian terrorists themselves deliberately place their own civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes as a matter of set policy -- an acknowledged WAR CRIME that has even been cited, though only occasionally and tepidly, by the UN. Arielmessenger has, again, never once acknowledged or responded to these facts and arguments, nor to the observation that he consistently refuses to debate them.
(3) The openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast
According to Arielmessenger, these open declarations of total war without restriction, and of the intent to ethnically cleanse the Mideast of Jews, by whatever means necessary, do not exist. On the contrary; The actions of Israel are presented as if they were unmotivated acts of sheer sadistic evil and greed carried out in a vacuum without provocation. He consistently dismisses the very concept of "self-defense" without any attempt to show why it is not entirely applicable. Arielmessenger has never once acknowledged these FACTS, or even acknowledged that he has ever read these arguments. And, yet again, he will not even respond to the factual observation and objection that he refuses to debate these points.
(4) The decades of Government-sponsored and -encouraged old-school Nazi-style antisemitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is continually subjected, which includes Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy (including the Jews being "behind" the 9/11 attacks, which arielmessenger has in fact repeated), the promoting of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic document, and even, incredibly, dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true
According to Arielmessenger, only Jews and Israelis are capable of hate or have ever expressed hatred or advocated violence. He has never once acknowledged the well-established and well-documented FACT of institutional and government-sponsored antisemitism in Arab lands, or the FACT of the widespread teaching of antisemitic hatred and antisemitic (that is, anti-Jew) violence by Muslim religious authorities, beginning with the FACT that the mass murder of Jewish civilians by suicide bomb, women and children explicitly included, is widely taught as a sacred religious act that should be emulated, admired and celebrated by all Muslims. All these charges are very well documented indeed; nevertheless, these, too, are facts and arguments to which Arielmessenger has never once responded, nor so much as acknowledged. Not once, not ever.
(5) The explicitly stated Palestinian goal of the ethnic cleansing of Jews in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea
According to the Palestinian terror organizations, no Jews are to be allowed to live in any prospective Palestinian state in Gaza or the West Bank; in fact, according to the explicit declarations in their charters, no Jews at all should be allowed to live anywhere in the Mideast. Arielmessenger has never so much as alluded to this fact, even after being confronted with it on multiple threads. He has never even acknowledged the openly stated goal of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLO, etc., to rid the entire region of its Jews, even those who have lived there for millenia. Even more incredibly, he has never once explained why this is NOT "ethnic cleansing," even as he accuses the Israelis of that crime -- and, yet again, he has never even acknowledged this criticism of his posts.
(6) The fact that very many Arabs never left Israel at the time of its founding, and many (20% of the Israeli population) live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day
As I have noted many times; Arabs and Muslims live and work in Israel as full citizens, owning land and businesses, buying and selling, VOTING, serving in the Israeli Knesset and the Israeli Army, as attorneys and judges in the Israeli courts, as Israeli government officials and bureaucrats, as Israeli police officers, physicians, emergency personnel, and on and on -- in fact, in every aspect of public and private Israeli life. NONE of this was true of blacks in South Africa, and yet Arielmessenger insists on referring to "Apartheid" as if that term were appropriate, applicable and beyond dispute.
(7) The factual record of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of land for peace
Arielmessenger continually and consistently claims that Israel has illegally seized land from the Palestinians and intends to seize more -- while the actual, factual record shows otherwise. The Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and the Sinai Peninsula all came under Israeli control at the end of the 1967 war, which was explicitly announced in advance by the Arab nations involved to be a "war of annihilation" against Israel; and, even though land acquired in a defensive war may be retained as a matter of settled international law, the Israeli state has repeatedly offered to return ALL of these lands to the nations which attacked it, and/or to the people living in them, in return for nothing but peace. That is absolutely proven by the FACT that the oil-rich Sinai peninsula WAS returned to Egypt in return for a peace treaty which has remained in effect for 30 years. And yet, again, Arielmessenger has never responded to nor acknowledged these facts and arguments, nor to the repeated criticisms of his refusal to do so. Not once, not ever. Whether or not those arguments, or indeed ANY of these arguments, are correct is not the point here: the point is that Arielmessenger never debates them at all and implicitly claims that they don't exist.
(8) The FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict
The false charges of "stolen land" and "illegal occupation" are repeated over and over again, but without any attempt to refute or rebut the case that I have repeatedly made against both in very many threads here. On the contrary: those historically inaccurate and HIGHLY debatable allegations are assumed as matters of proven fact, while the enormous amount of well-established and well-documented evidence against them is summarily dismissed as "Zionist propaganda" without any attempt to actually DEBATE it.
Arielmessenger does not, in short, actually debate issues involving Israel; he propagandizes, and that only. He does not respond to opposing arguments; he does not even admit to having seen any opposing arguments or that opposing arguments exist. He does not debate them, rebut them, or answer them in any way; indeed, he does not even allude to the fact that he has been endlessly criticized for not doing so. His answers, if one can call them such, seem to consist of nothing more than mocking and ridicule. In short, his entire strategy in "debate" on the subject of Israel consists of posting anti-Israel propaganda and carefully avoiding even alluding to opposing arguments and facts -- forget about actually DEBATING them.
For the record, in my five years or so of posting here, I have never denied that there have been atrocities committed by the Israelis, both past and present. I have more than once expressed concern for the Palestinians, and in fact have listed links to dozens of JEWISH and ISRAELI peace organizations committed to ending the Occupation and restoring Palestinian rights. THERE HAVE BEEN SINS AND EVIL ACTS COMMITTED BY BOTH SIDES HERE; but pretending that ALL the evils and atrocities have come from one side, and that the other side is as pure and innocent as the driven snow while its opposition is wholly evil and pernicious -- because of its evil religion, no less -- is neither fair, nor accurate, nor anything approaching meaningful discussion of the subject.
Is there a wall separating Palestinian land from Israeli land, which often keeps peaceful Palestinians from reaching their own land or work? Yes, there is, and that is wrong; but it is DISHONEST to deliberately omit and suppress the FACT that the wall was erected to make terrorist attacks, such as mass murder by suicide bomb, more difficult.
To take a few more examples that have not yet arisen on this thread: Have Palestinian ambulances been stopped and searched, delaying medical care for Palestinians? Yes, they have, and that is wrong; but it is also necessary, because the FACT is that this is done because Palestinian terrorists have VERY OFTEN used ambulances to transport explosives, weapons, and fighters (which is an acknowledge WAR CRIME, defined as such by the Geneva Convention).
Are pregnant Palestinian women in labor stopped and searched by Israeli authorities? Yes, they are, and that is WRONG; but it is again necessary, because Palestinian suicide bombers have OFTEN disguised themselves as pregnant women in labor (the target implications of that tactic can be left to the imagination).
Have the Israelis sometimes overstepped even their legitimate need for security precautions and committed atrocities that are NOT justifiable? Yes, they certainly have; but once again, it is WRONG to deliberately omit the willful, deliberate and calculated targeting of innocent civilian noncombatants by Palestinian terrorists as a matter of conscious, set policy.
There is, absolutely inarguably, blame for BOTH SIDES here. To heap ALL the blame onto one side and to deny that ANY blame remains for the other is simply dishonest, as well as NOT conducive to any kind of productive peace process.
A definition might be helpful here (emphasis added):
Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position.
As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.
This seems clear enough. The pure demonization of one side and the canonization of the other is not truthful, is not accurate, and is not productive. Neither is it ETHICAL, to use a word favored by arielmessenger.
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arielmessenger
- Banned
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:14 am
- Location: Northern California
Post #23
Norm, I told you to talk to some Palestinians. Enter a dialogue with the people who your people, my people, European Jews, have dislocated from their homeland to make way for European Jewish immigrants who came in by the millions after 1948 under the very illegal U.N. Partition of Palestine which if attempted today would be instantly branded as counter the U.N. Charter's protection of the self-determination rights of indigenous populations. Obama signed this agreement for the U.S. and is now breaking it by supply arms and funds for the Israeli U.N. lawbreakers. Why do I have to answer your questions which as I said before are based on Zionist propaganda, e.g. the supposed "buying" of Israeli land which only comprised about 9% if that of the total land seized and continuing to be seized by Israel, all of this in complete violation of the original Partition mandate. Would the French have to "answer" the "legitimate reasons" Nazis gave for the German invasion and occupation of France? I don't think so. You're in with the Nazis now, Norm, fundamentalist Israelis who are running the show in Israel and their show is racist aggression and takeover by IDF backed "For Jews Only" illegal settlement building on Palestinian land, so no, I'm not going to bother to answer you as if you listened anyway. You don't. You're not here to listen to anything but your Zionist mantras that keep you in the paranoid headspace that really still believes all Palestinians want to push Jews into the sea.
Talk to Sami, Norm. See if he wants to push Israelis into the sea. Yes, I do know some Muslim Palestinians who would like to see this but even they know that there's too many Jews in Israel now to get rid of them without WW III breaking out, i.e., the same fate that barely stops Israeli fanatics from attacking Iran. Here's God's solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: The Canaan Peace Plan
Talk to Sami, Norm. See if he wants to push Israelis into the sea. Yes, I do know some Muslim Palestinians who would like to see this but even they know that there's too many Jews in Israel now to get rid of them without WW III breaking out, i.e., the same fate that barely stops Israeli fanatics from attacking Iran. Here's God's solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: The Canaan Peace Plan
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arielmessenger
- Banned
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:14 am
- Location: Northern California
Post #24
The Canaan Peace Plan
The Holy Land cannot be divided. To divide the Holy Land is a sacrilege.
Canaan
The Promised Land
Because of the Zionist religious concept of Israelite exclusive possession of the Holy Land, it is impossible for modern Palestinians as Gentiles to accept the name "Israel" as a proper name for their homeland. Indeed, for Gentiles of conscience who understand the meaning and the history of the name "Israel" as "He fights with God" plus the anti-Gentilism found in Jewish Torah and Talmud religious instruction, it is not possible to find inclusion in this name for non-Jews in Eretz Israel. To force recognition of "Israel" as the proper name of the Holy Land is to continue the Middle East conflict ad infinitum. Similarly, "Palestine" was the name the Roman Empire gave to the region and therefore it too has negative connotations to Jews as victims of Roman warfare against them. It is impossible for Israelis to accept "Palestine" as the proper name for their homeland.
What name can the Holy Land be for both groups to accept it? Only one name can be used because God wills it: Canaan, the name the Promised Land was known by for over two thousand years, longer than the few brief centuries of Israelite control, and longer than the 1500 years of Muslim control. In the spiritual wedding of the two peoples sharing the same territorial ground only one name is possible, the name historically given to that area of the Middle East, Canaan. Therefore, "Canaan" will be the name of the single Nation-State now known as Israel and the Occupied Territories. The combined Israeli and Palestinian communities will be known as Canaan, within which there will be the distinct Israeli and Palestinian sectors and communities plus mixed communities where both live and work together. Canaan will be the model for cooperative government between two distinct groups of people who each have historic claims to the same land.
Requirements for establishing lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians
The Fair Share Principle
The only fair share is an equal share, therefore the Canaan Peace Plan asks for Israelis and Palestinians to accept equal sharing of Canaan, equal sharing of the Holy City of Jerusalem, equal sharing of access to the Temple Mount area where there is room enough for both the Dome of the Rock and a new Temple, equal sharing of the fertile land in Canaan, equal access to the Holy Land coast, equal access to the Sea of Galilee, and equal sharing of the water sources of Canaan.
Water is an important issue for both Israelis and Palestinians. The fair share principle must apply to available water sources within Canaan. Neither Israelis or Palestine can be allowed to dictate the distribution of Canaanite water. Only a government of Canaan can do so as a democratic representative of both nation states. Only by both Israelis and Palestinians agreeing to fair and equal sharing in Canaan will social injustice be prevented from continuing to happen.
Two separate States or One?
There are enormous problems in creating two separate nations in the Holy Land of Canaan. Because Canaan is actually quite small in area creating two separate nation states will weaken both ethnic groups politically and will do very little to erase the scars of mutual animosity between these two groups both of which belong together as mutual descendents of their commonly held ancestor and patriarch, Abraham. Also, due to the relatively small area when peace does prevail between the two groups social interaction and eventually intermarriage will decrease the ethnic divisions. Only ethnic prejudice can maintain exclusivity and ethnic prejudice can no longer be tolerated in Canaan, the Promised Holy Land.
Because there are now many Palestinian communities in Israel and many Israeli communities in the Occupied Territories of Palestine, much social uprooting would have to take place in order to create two separate nation states in Canaan. Democracy will prevent Zionism from ever having total control in Israel and democracy will bring social justice for Palestinians as they eventually retrieve political power by the power of the vote. Democracy will prevent Islamic rulership from ever having total control of the Holy Land so democracy will become God's path to peace in the Holy Land.
Separate Sectors of governing authority
The legacy of the 1947 U.N. partition has created an almost impossible to bridge physical separation between Palestinians living in the West Bank and Palestinians living in the Gaza area. Separate Israeli and Palestinian communities are possible but two separate nation states will be near impossible to establish now without major social uprooting. Therefore the Canaan Peace Plan calls for the establishment of Israeli and Palestinian Sectors of community authority, each ethnic group maintaining its own governing authority over communities within each group's Sectors.
Canaan Government: The Assembly of Canaan
Canaan will be governed by an Assembly of Canaan under a Canaan Constitution. A democratically elected Assembly of Canaan composed of equal representatives of both Israeli and Palestinian citizens will govern Canaan interests outside the borders of the internal communities of Israel and Palestine.
A President of the Assembly of Canaan will be chosen through democratic vote of all Israeli and Palestinian citizens. At present, the common language in use between Israelis and Palestinians is English so the governing Assembly will be conducted in that language until another language is jointly agreed upon or spontaneously evolves. Because the Canaanite language was the originator of all Semitic languages as well as all Western alphabets, a new form of Canaanite language may develop as Hebrew and Arabic mix in modern Canaanite society.
Canaan High Court
Israeli and Palestinian communities within Canaan will be governed by their own citizens in the ways each has or will establish. Any conflicts between these nation-state governments and the Assembly of Canaan will be decided by convening a Canaan High Court, again composed of equal representation of both Israeli and Palestinian citizens. The Canaan High Court will decide major legal issues between Israeli and Palestinian citizens.
Canaanite Communities
The Assembly of Canaan will have jurisdiction over "Canaanite communities" which are existing and newly established communities composed of both Israelis and Palestinians who wish to live together in harmony without either Israeli or Palestinian national or religious agendas getting in the way. Canaanite community governments will follow the democratically elected Assembly of Canaan model. A provision should be made for future expansion of Canaanite Communities as citizens of future generations forgo the prejudices of their forebears wishing instead to create one people for one Holy Land nation under God as Holy One.
Jerusalem
The Capital and seat of the Assembly of Canaan will be Jerusalem. Israeli and Palestinian communities too will each have their capital government offices in Jerusalem but the City as a whole will be governed by the Assembly of Canaan and not under either Israel or Palestinian control although Israeli Sectors and Palestinian Sectors within Jerusalem city limits will be allowed. These Sectors will be governed by their appropriate nation-state governments. Conflicts between Sectors will be decided by the Canaanite High Court, the judicial branch of the Assembly of Canaan.
Jerusalem and Temple Mount will be the first testing of the Canaan concept of co-operative dominion by both Israelis and Palestinians. The land of Old Jerusalem will be formally dedicated back to God, the Holy One, the same God both Israelis and Palestinians worship under the names of YHWH and Allah. In Hebrew Scriptures, The Holy One gave Canaan, the Promised Land, to the Hebrews. The Holy One took the land away from them several times during their history, then gave it back again in 1948. But the new Israel still came with old curse of disputed possession of the land as it has been the Holy One's intention all along for the Semitic originated religions and their peoples to overcome their religious barriers to one another.
The Holy One knows the conflict creates the need to solve it. Solving it will bring spiritual maturity to both Israelis and Palestinians. Both are related by blood and shared ancient history. The Holy One is sick and tired of all the blood shed in senseless wars between people living in Its Holy Land. The Holy One is making known through this spiritually inspired solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that there is only one way out of the curse blocking the delivery of the Promised Land. The Chosen themselves must choose the supreme sacrifice: they must understand that only by voluntarily sharing Canaan with all who have their national, cultural, and religious birthrights to it will end the reoccurring cycle of violence.
Equality in the Right of Return
All Palestinians living in other countries must be allowed freedom to return to Canaan just as Israelis have allowed all Jews to return to Israel. This is in line with the Fair Share Principle but understandably creates serious problems with over-population of Canaan with Jews and Palestinians both contributing although with Palestinians contributing more because of their higher birth rates. With expanded Palestinian Sector territory due to fair sharing of all Canaan there will be more room for refugee Palestinians who wish to return to their homeland. Both Israel and Palestine then can begin their task of working on over-population issues along with the majority of nations of the world.
Protection of Holy Sites
Each religious site within Jerusalem and others in Canaan will be under the protection of the Assembly of Canaan. At no time will worshippers at the sacred sites or houses of worship be denied their rights of access to the religious sites of their religions. The Temple Mount area too must be divided equally in control between Israeli Jews, Palestinian Muslims, and both Israelis and Palestinians who have rekindled a modern form of the Canaanite religion.
The Temple Mount will host both the Dome of the Rock mosque and a Third Temple (Ezekiel model) to be built beside it on the north side which may have been the original intended Temple site. There is enough room for both disputed religious structures. There is no need to prove to God who's religion is greater by the ancient and spiritually primitive tribal war system of destroying one another's sites of worship. The Holy One has no desire for human beings to fight one another over ancient history that is so tangled with mythology it can never be proven one way or another. Territorial based religion is religion for spiritually insecure peoples who confuse the desires of men for territorial control with the desires of God who has "owned" everything since the beginning.
Demilitarization: Ending U.S. economic support of Israeli armed forces
The Assembly of Canaan must insure peace throughout Canaan. Therefore, the Assembly of Canaan will have the authority to force Israelis to cede their great military superiority compared to Palestinians to the authority of the Assembly of Canaan, just as the Palestinian Authority must also do. Israel should know by now after 55 years of occupying Palestine that military superiority has never brought Israelis security. Only social justice for all will bring that security. As Israel will be loathed to give up what it believes to be its only security against hostility from Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations even though the historical record shows such over-arming to have virtually no effect on the capacity of Palestinian militants to inflict injury on Israeli citizens, the Canaan Peace Plan also calls for the United States to cease aiding Israel against Palestine, to cease all military aid to Israel at once and to equalize economic aid to Israel with aid given to Palestine.
Years of inequality in such US aid have given Israelis a tremendous economic and political advantage over Palestinians. This US aid, more than anything else, has led to the intransigence of Israel to the creation of a Palestinian state and to the 55 years of bloodshed between the two peoples of the Holy Land. The Canaan Peace Plan will be both the spiritual and the secular instrument for the new covenant of peace and co-operation between Israelis and Palestinians. Canaan will be the manifestation of this new enlightenment and it will serve as a universal model for ending bloodshed in all war-torn regions where two or more populations with differing cultures dispute ownership of the same geographical territory. Through this Canaan Peace Plan vision given to a Jewish Christian, the Holy One has sent It's answer to Zionism and Jihad, an answer that that will finally establish the Promised Land, the Holy Land, whole and Holy, the first step in reclaiming all lands as Sacred Ground.
* *
Jerusalem belongs to God
From Tribune News Services
August 31, 2000
JERUSALEM, MIDDLE EAST -- Israelis and Palestinians who have spent months wrangling over which side should control Jerusalem's holy sites are turning their attention to an idea floated after Camp David's failure: put God in charge. The proposal to declare God the sovereign over Jerusalem shrines is tentative, but it has the potential to help defuse the most emotional dispute in the Middle East peace talks. "This is a very promising solution," said political scientist Menachem Klein, member of an Israeli think tank that has been advising Prime Minister Ehud Barak in the negotiations. Klein said the idea of putting God in charge was first floated after July's Mideast summit.
A working model "Canaanite Community"
There exists a village in Israel as of this writing that conforms to the visionary proposal of the Canaanite Communities, at least as far as that the proposal calls for communities of Israelis and Palestinians living and working together peacefully. The Village is Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam. Below was taken from the Internet description of this village.
"Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam is a village in Israel which was established as a model for Jewish/Arab coexistence. The village was founded jointly by Jews and Arabs, and has since been inhabited by both groups. The families and individuals who live, study and work in Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam work to achieve peace, equality and understanding between the two peoples."
The Assembly of Canaan is modeled on the ancient Canaanite religious model of the Divine Assembly where God Most High presided as President. Although the Canaanites were pagans their God Most High, EL, became incorporated into both Judaic and Islamic conceptions of God as YHWH and Allah. The Canaan Peace Plan thus unifies both religious groups by reaching back into the beginnings of the religions of both Jews and Palestinians.
The original Canaan Peace Plan was based on the World Community Land Trust proposal I wrote in 1974.
For the protection of religious and ethnic communities without the need of massive security measures see the Protection Plan for Ethnic Groups Protection Plan for Ethnic Groups page.
This vision also sees in the future Samaria arising once again independent of Israel or Palestine but sharing internal sovereignty with them in the land of Canaan of their common origin. Its capital center will be Ariel as it is today.
The End of modern Israel: Facing the fact of the inevitable end of Zionism
-June 21, 2007 Update
For years I have been working under an assumption that I now understand was false because I had been talking with Palestinian and Israeli peace activists almost exclusively. My assumption was that Palestinians would ultimately be in favor of a cooperative coalition government composed of equal representatives of Israeli interests and Palestinian interests in a co-dominion government. Now I realize this is not going to happen because Israelis have gone too far in their quest to rid Palestinians from Eretz Israel.
Unlike the mitigating factor of Christianity in South Africa that manifested itself in the concept of obuntu, in the forgiveness seen in the Peace and Reconciliation program of native South Africans that avoided a bloodbath of retribution by Black South Africans against their white Afrikaaner oppressors., Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslims both do not have strong religious mandates for forgiveness. When Palestinians do eventually take back their homeland, and they will because they are the majority population and will even become so in Israel by 2050, when that happens there will likely be retribution against Israelis who committed atrocities against Palestinians.
The original purpose of the Canaan Peace Plan was to create a mutual cooperative governing plan for the Holy Land but now I realize God is using this Canaan Peace Plan as the survival plan for Israeli Jews when Palestinians retake their nation. If Israeli Jews do not implement this Canaan Peace Plan they will inevitably be driven from Israel by victorious Palestinians with only the original Palestinian Jewish families being allowed to live in a new Palestinian controlled nation. If Israeli Jews want to save Eretz Israel and themselves from another potential Holocaust they can only do so by voluntarily offering to limit their territorial ambition to Eretz Israeli neighborhood and kibbutzim communities that are protected within the shared land of Canaan. This is all God can do because Zionism and modern Israel never has had God's blessing--60 years of unrelenting Israeli-Palestinian hatred and warfare should convince any reasonably sane person of this truth. The Canaan Peace Plan is how God Most High wants the conflict to be resolved.
The Holy Land cannot be divided. To divide the Holy Land is a sacrilege.
Canaan
The Promised Land
Because of the Zionist religious concept of Israelite exclusive possession of the Holy Land, it is impossible for modern Palestinians as Gentiles to accept the name "Israel" as a proper name for their homeland. Indeed, for Gentiles of conscience who understand the meaning and the history of the name "Israel" as "He fights with God" plus the anti-Gentilism found in Jewish Torah and Talmud religious instruction, it is not possible to find inclusion in this name for non-Jews in Eretz Israel. To force recognition of "Israel" as the proper name of the Holy Land is to continue the Middle East conflict ad infinitum. Similarly, "Palestine" was the name the Roman Empire gave to the region and therefore it too has negative connotations to Jews as victims of Roman warfare against them. It is impossible for Israelis to accept "Palestine" as the proper name for their homeland.
What name can the Holy Land be for both groups to accept it? Only one name can be used because God wills it: Canaan, the name the Promised Land was known by for over two thousand years, longer than the few brief centuries of Israelite control, and longer than the 1500 years of Muslim control. In the spiritual wedding of the two peoples sharing the same territorial ground only one name is possible, the name historically given to that area of the Middle East, Canaan. Therefore, "Canaan" will be the name of the single Nation-State now known as Israel and the Occupied Territories. The combined Israeli and Palestinian communities will be known as Canaan, within which there will be the distinct Israeli and Palestinian sectors and communities plus mixed communities where both live and work together. Canaan will be the model for cooperative government between two distinct groups of people who each have historic claims to the same land.
Requirements for establishing lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians
The Fair Share Principle
The only fair share is an equal share, therefore the Canaan Peace Plan asks for Israelis and Palestinians to accept equal sharing of Canaan, equal sharing of the Holy City of Jerusalem, equal sharing of access to the Temple Mount area where there is room enough for both the Dome of the Rock and a new Temple, equal sharing of the fertile land in Canaan, equal access to the Holy Land coast, equal access to the Sea of Galilee, and equal sharing of the water sources of Canaan.
Water is an important issue for both Israelis and Palestinians. The fair share principle must apply to available water sources within Canaan. Neither Israelis or Palestine can be allowed to dictate the distribution of Canaanite water. Only a government of Canaan can do so as a democratic representative of both nation states. Only by both Israelis and Palestinians agreeing to fair and equal sharing in Canaan will social injustice be prevented from continuing to happen.
Two separate States or One?
There are enormous problems in creating two separate nations in the Holy Land of Canaan. Because Canaan is actually quite small in area creating two separate nation states will weaken both ethnic groups politically and will do very little to erase the scars of mutual animosity between these two groups both of which belong together as mutual descendents of their commonly held ancestor and patriarch, Abraham. Also, due to the relatively small area when peace does prevail between the two groups social interaction and eventually intermarriage will decrease the ethnic divisions. Only ethnic prejudice can maintain exclusivity and ethnic prejudice can no longer be tolerated in Canaan, the Promised Holy Land.
Because there are now many Palestinian communities in Israel and many Israeli communities in the Occupied Territories of Palestine, much social uprooting would have to take place in order to create two separate nation states in Canaan. Democracy will prevent Zionism from ever having total control in Israel and democracy will bring social justice for Palestinians as they eventually retrieve political power by the power of the vote. Democracy will prevent Islamic rulership from ever having total control of the Holy Land so democracy will become God's path to peace in the Holy Land.
Separate Sectors of governing authority
The legacy of the 1947 U.N. partition has created an almost impossible to bridge physical separation between Palestinians living in the West Bank and Palestinians living in the Gaza area. Separate Israeli and Palestinian communities are possible but two separate nation states will be near impossible to establish now without major social uprooting. Therefore the Canaan Peace Plan calls for the establishment of Israeli and Palestinian Sectors of community authority, each ethnic group maintaining its own governing authority over communities within each group's Sectors.
Canaan Government: The Assembly of Canaan
Canaan will be governed by an Assembly of Canaan under a Canaan Constitution. A democratically elected Assembly of Canaan composed of equal representatives of both Israeli and Palestinian citizens will govern Canaan interests outside the borders of the internal communities of Israel and Palestine.
A President of the Assembly of Canaan will be chosen through democratic vote of all Israeli and Palestinian citizens. At present, the common language in use between Israelis and Palestinians is English so the governing Assembly will be conducted in that language until another language is jointly agreed upon or spontaneously evolves. Because the Canaanite language was the originator of all Semitic languages as well as all Western alphabets, a new form of Canaanite language may develop as Hebrew and Arabic mix in modern Canaanite society.
Canaan High Court
Israeli and Palestinian communities within Canaan will be governed by their own citizens in the ways each has or will establish. Any conflicts between these nation-state governments and the Assembly of Canaan will be decided by convening a Canaan High Court, again composed of equal representation of both Israeli and Palestinian citizens. The Canaan High Court will decide major legal issues between Israeli and Palestinian citizens.
Canaanite Communities
The Assembly of Canaan will have jurisdiction over "Canaanite communities" which are existing and newly established communities composed of both Israelis and Palestinians who wish to live together in harmony without either Israeli or Palestinian national or religious agendas getting in the way. Canaanite community governments will follow the democratically elected Assembly of Canaan model. A provision should be made for future expansion of Canaanite Communities as citizens of future generations forgo the prejudices of their forebears wishing instead to create one people for one Holy Land nation under God as Holy One.
Jerusalem
The Capital and seat of the Assembly of Canaan will be Jerusalem. Israeli and Palestinian communities too will each have their capital government offices in Jerusalem but the City as a whole will be governed by the Assembly of Canaan and not under either Israel or Palestinian control although Israeli Sectors and Palestinian Sectors within Jerusalem city limits will be allowed. These Sectors will be governed by their appropriate nation-state governments. Conflicts between Sectors will be decided by the Canaanite High Court, the judicial branch of the Assembly of Canaan.
Jerusalem and Temple Mount will be the first testing of the Canaan concept of co-operative dominion by both Israelis and Palestinians. The land of Old Jerusalem will be formally dedicated back to God, the Holy One, the same God both Israelis and Palestinians worship under the names of YHWH and Allah. In Hebrew Scriptures, The Holy One gave Canaan, the Promised Land, to the Hebrews. The Holy One took the land away from them several times during their history, then gave it back again in 1948. But the new Israel still came with old curse of disputed possession of the land as it has been the Holy One's intention all along for the Semitic originated religions and their peoples to overcome their religious barriers to one another.
The Holy One knows the conflict creates the need to solve it. Solving it will bring spiritual maturity to both Israelis and Palestinians. Both are related by blood and shared ancient history. The Holy One is sick and tired of all the blood shed in senseless wars between people living in Its Holy Land. The Holy One is making known through this spiritually inspired solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that there is only one way out of the curse blocking the delivery of the Promised Land. The Chosen themselves must choose the supreme sacrifice: they must understand that only by voluntarily sharing Canaan with all who have their national, cultural, and religious birthrights to it will end the reoccurring cycle of violence.
Equality in the Right of Return
All Palestinians living in other countries must be allowed freedom to return to Canaan just as Israelis have allowed all Jews to return to Israel. This is in line with the Fair Share Principle but understandably creates serious problems with over-population of Canaan with Jews and Palestinians both contributing although with Palestinians contributing more because of their higher birth rates. With expanded Palestinian Sector territory due to fair sharing of all Canaan there will be more room for refugee Palestinians who wish to return to their homeland. Both Israel and Palestine then can begin their task of working on over-population issues along with the majority of nations of the world.
Protection of Holy Sites
Each religious site within Jerusalem and others in Canaan will be under the protection of the Assembly of Canaan. At no time will worshippers at the sacred sites or houses of worship be denied their rights of access to the religious sites of their religions. The Temple Mount area too must be divided equally in control between Israeli Jews, Palestinian Muslims, and both Israelis and Palestinians who have rekindled a modern form of the Canaanite religion.
The Temple Mount will host both the Dome of the Rock mosque and a Third Temple (Ezekiel model) to be built beside it on the north side which may have been the original intended Temple site. There is enough room for both disputed religious structures. There is no need to prove to God who's religion is greater by the ancient and spiritually primitive tribal war system of destroying one another's sites of worship. The Holy One has no desire for human beings to fight one another over ancient history that is so tangled with mythology it can never be proven one way or another. Territorial based religion is religion for spiritually insecure peoples who confuse the desires of men for territorial control with the desires of God who has "owned" everything since the beginning.
Demilitarization: Ending U.S. economic support of Israeli armed forces
The Assembly of Canaan must insure peace throughout Canaan. Therefore, the Assembly of Canaan will have the authority to force Israelis to cede their great military superiority compared to Palestinians to the authority of the Assembly of Canaan, just as the Palestinian Authority must also do. Israel should know by now after 55 years of occupying Palestine that military superiority has never brought Israelis security. Only social justice for all will bring that security. As Israel will be loathed to give up what it believes to be its only security against hostility from Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations even though the historical record shows such over-arming to have virtually no effect on the capacity of Palestinian militants to inflict injury on Israeli citizens, the Canaan Peace Plan also calls for the United States to cease aiding Israel against Palestine, to cease all military aid to Israel at once and to equalize economic aid to Israel with aid given to Palestine.
Years of inequality in such US aid have given Israelis a tremendous economic and political advantage over Palestinians. This US aid, more than anything else, has led to the intransigence of Israel to the creation of a Palestinian state and to the 55 years of bloodshed between the two peoples of the Holy Land. The Canaan Peace Plan will be both the spiritual and the secular instrument for the new covenant of peace and co-operation between Israelis and Palestinians. Canaan will be the manifestation of this new enlightenment and it will serve as a universal model for ending bloodshed in all war-torn regions where two or more populations with differing cultures dispute ownership of the same geographical territory. Through this Canaan Peace Plan vision given to a Jewish Christian, the Holy One has sent It's answer to Zionism and Jihad, an answer that that will finally establish the Promised Land, the Holy Land, whole and Holy, the first step in reclaiming all lands as Sacred Ground.
* *
Jerusalem belongs to God
From Tribune News Services
August 31, 2000
JERUSALEM, MIDDLE EAST -- Israelis and Palestinians who have spent months wrangling over which side should control Jerusalem's holy sites are turning their attention to an idea floated after Camp David's failure: put God in charge. The proposal to declare God the sovereign over Jerusalem shrines is tentative, but it has the potential to help defuse the most emotional dispute in the Middle East peace talks. "This is a very promising solution," said political scientist Menachem Klein, member of an Israeli think tank that has been advising Prime Minister Ehud Barak in the negotiations. Klein said the idea of putting God in charge was first floated after July's Mideast summit.
A working model "Canaanite Community"
There exists a village in Israel as of this writing that conforms to the visionary proposal of the Canaanite Communities, at least as far as that the proposal calls for communities of Israelis and Palestinians living and working together peacefully. The Village is Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam. Below was taken from the Internet description of this village.
"Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam is a village in Israel which was established as a model for Jewish/Arab coexistence. The village was founded jointly by Jews and Arabs, and has since been inhabited by both groups. The families and individuals who live, study and work in Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam work to achieve peace, equality and understanding between the two peoples."
The Assembly of Canaan is modeled on the ancient Canaanite religious model of the Divine Assembly where God Most High presided as President. Although the Canaanites were pagans their God Most High, EL, became incorporated into both Judaic and Islamic conceptions of God as YHWH and Allah. The Canaan Peace Plan thus unifies both religious groups by reaching back into the beginnings of the religions of both Jews and Palestinians.
The original Canaan Peace Plan was based on the World Community Land Trust proposal I wrote in 1974.
For the protection of religious and ethnic communities without the need of massive security measures see the Protection Plan for Ethnic Groups Protection Plan for Ethnic Groups page.
This vision also sees in the future Samaria arising once again independent of Israel or Palestine but sharing internal sovereignty with them in the land of Canaan of their common origin. Its capital center will be Ariel as it is today.
The End of modern Israel: Facing the fact of the inevitable end of Zionism
-June 21, 2007 Update
For years I have been working under an assumption that I now understand was false because I had been talking with Palestinian and Israeli peace activists almost exclusively. My assumption was that Palestinians would ultimately be in favor of a cooperative coalition government composed of equal representatives of Israeli interests and Palestinian interests in a co-dominion government. Now I realize this is not going to happen because Israelis have gone too far in their quest to rid Palestinians from Eretz Israel.
Unlike the mitigating factor of Christianity in South Africa that manifested itself in the concept of obuntu, in the forgiveness seen in the Peace and Reconciliation program of native South Africans that avoided a bloodbath of retribution by Black South Africans against their white Afrikaaner oppressors., Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslims both do not have strong religious mandates for forgiveness. When Palestinians do eventually take back their homeland, and they will because they are the majority population and will even become so in Israel by 2050, when that happens there will likely be retribution against Israelis who committed atrocities against Palestinians.
The original purpose of the Canaan Peace Plan was to create a mutual cooperative governing plan for the Holy Land but now I realize God is using this Canaan Peace Plan as the survival plan for Israeli Jews when Palestinians retake their nation. If Israeli Jews do not implement this Canaan Peace Plan they will inevitably be driven from Israel by victorious Palestinians with only the original Palestinian Jewish families being allowed to live in a new Palestinian controlled nation. If Israeli Jews want to save Eretz Israel and themselves from another potential Holocaust they can only do so by voluntarily offering to limit their territorial ambition to Eretz Israeli neighborhood and kibbutzim communities that are protected within the shared land of Canaan. This is all God can do because Zionism and modern Israel never has had God's blessing--60 years of unrelenting Israeli-Palestinian hatred and warfare should convince any reasonably sane person of this truth. The Canaan Peace Plan is how God Most High wants the conflict to be resolved.
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cnorman18
Post #25
Well, it's pretty obvious that you still haven't attempted to rebut any of my posts, preferring to smear them as "Zionist propaganda" and even admitting that you're not going to bother to answer me. All the topics which you refuse to acknowledge -- that is, the matters on which you lie by omission -- remain unacknowledged.
Most especially including #4 -- The decades of Government-sponsored and -encouraged old-school Nazi-style antisemitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is continually subjected, which includes Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy (including the Jews being "behind" the 9/11 attacks, which arielmessenger has in fact repeated), the promoting of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic document, and even, incredibly, dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true. That you refuse to admit those FACTS into the discussion firmly establishes that you are the propagandist here and not I.
And that issue is CENTRAL to the proposal you post here. The government- and religion-sponsored indoctrination into outright hatred of Jews and Israelis that has been force-fed to the Palestinians for generations simply makes the one-state idea unworkable from the get-go. From the Jewish point of view, it's simply national suicide. The one-state solution would turn Israel into a de facto Palestinian state. This isn't an insignificant objection or a quibble. If all of Palestine, that is, all of Israel proper together with the West Bank and Gaza, were to become a single state tomorrow, that would immediately make the Jews a minority among people who hate them and have been taught, encouraged, and even commanded by their religious leaders to do so for generations. A "one-state solution," however tempered by separate "communities" or whatever, would still leave the Israelis a minority in a nation dominated by people who, by and large, hate them -- which is, of course, the very situation which the Jewish refugees from Europe were fleeing in the First Aliyah of 1882-1903. Ignoring or discounting that very obvious and very relevant fact is hardly a fair or evenhanded "solution." It entails completely excluding the point of view of the Jews of Israel, and if the goal is a fair and equitable solution that takes the rights of both sides into account, it's a non-starter. I don't think turning Palestine into 1938 Poland is a particularly good solution.
Sorry, but you're still not debating here. If you'd give up the personal attacks and insults -- "You're in with the Nazis now" -- and actually respond to my posts instead of dismissing them, we might have something to say to each other.
Pretending to respond isn't going to get you there. Yes, Jews owned about 9% of the area that became Israel; but Arabs owned even less, and selectively suppressing that FACT is just another lie by omission.
Pretending to debate isn't the same as actually debating. I'd say "nice try," but it wasn't.
Most especially including #4 -- The decades of Government-sponsored and -encouraged old-school Nazi-style antisemitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is continually subjected, which includes Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy (including the Jews being "behind" the 9/11 attacks, which arielmessenger has in fact repeated), the promoting of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic document, and even, incredibly, dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true. That you refuse to admit those FACTS into the discussion firmly establishes that you are the propagandist here and not I.
And that issue is CENTRAL to the proposal you post here. The government- and religion-sponsored indoctrination into outright hatred of Jews and Israelis that has been force-fed to the Palestinians for generations simply makes the one-state idea unworkable from the get-go. From the Jewish point of view, it's simply national suicide. The one-state solution would turn Israel into a de facto Palestinian state. This isn't an insignificant objection or a quibble. If all of Palestine, that is, all of Israel proper together with the West Bank and Gaza, were to become a single state tomorrow, that would immediately make the Jews a minority among people who hate them and have been taught, encouraged, and even commanded by their religious leaders to do so for generations. A "one-state solution," however tempered by separate "communities" or whatever, would still leave the Israelis a minority in a nation dominated by people who, by and large, hate them -- which is, of course, the very situation which the Jewish refugees from Europe were fleeing in the First Aliyah of 1882-1903. Ignoring or discounting that very obvious and very relevant fact is hardly a fair or evenhanded "solution." It entails completely excluding the point of view of the Jews of Israel, and if the goal is a fair and equitable solution that takes the rights of both sides into account, it's a non-starter. I don't think turning Palestine into 1938 Poland is a particularly good solution.
Sorry, but you're still not debating here. If you'd give up the personal attacks and insults -- "You're in with the Nazis now" -- and actually respond to my posts instead of dismissing them, we might have something to say to each other.
Pretending to respond isn't going to get you there. Yes, Jews owned about 9% of the area that became Israel; but Arabs owned even less, and selectively suppressing that FACT is just another lie by omission.
Pretending to debate isn't the same as actually debating. I'd say "nice try," but it wasn't.
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arielmessenger
- Banned
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:14 am
- Location: Northern California
Post #26
Norm, I too am a fanatic but even I have my limits of debating with closed minded people locked into whatever Script gives them meaning to their lives. You've just accepted a bad Script, my friend, one best left for the museum of history instead of being inflicted on our world where ideas of ancient dead men have no place and just create chaos when acted out in modern times.cnorman18 wrote: Well, it's pretty obvious that you still haven't attempted to rebut any of my posts, preferring to smear them as "Zionist propaganda" and even admitting that you're not going to bother to answer me. All the topics which you refuse to acknowledge -- that is, the matters on which you lie by omission -- remain unacknowledged.
Most especially including #4 -- The decades of Government-sponsored and -encouraged old-school Nazi-style antisemitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is continually subjected, which includes Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy (including the Jews being "behind" the 9/11 attacks, which arielmessenger has in fact repeated), the promoting of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic document, and even, incredibly, dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true. That you refuse to admit those FACTS into the discussion firmly establishes that you are the propagandist here and not I.
This is your pure Zionist Jewish paranoid fantasies talking to me and really, why debate a paranoid? Take your holocaust denial that Jews use to get revenge I guess for what Europeans did to them as if it were different from what Europeans have been doing to various ethnic groups since they got political power from exploiting Other People's Lands starting with Columbus. Native Americans suffered the worst holocaust of any ethnic group. The Russian Christians come in second place and some blame the Communist Commissars for much of that and, Norm, who made up the majority ethnic group in Russian Commissars from 1917 to the start of WW II? The Cambodians, the Hutus, the Kurds, the Armenians, all of them suffering millions of people lost in holocausts. But which one of these groups has led a worldwide hunt for their persecutors and which one of these groups has made a business of merchandizing holocaust museums? And which one of these groups lobbied Western powers since the late 1800's to help them invade and takeover Palestine? And which one of these countries has gotten governments to actually prosecute people who just plain don't agree with the figures provided by Jewish sources on holocaust deaths. I've seen the argument why the 6 million figure is grossly exaggerated and I've never seen any reasoned argument against it, only Zionists like you ready to trot out the "holocaust denial" tag as if that answered everything. All these act of Zionists are based on paranoia of Gentiles, e.g. attacking Americans like me who is not only legally Jewish but had a father who fought against Hitler and the Fascists, willing to give their lives while back home Jews will attack Americans for telling the historical truth like I do. Freedom of speech guaranteed by our Constitution is in jeopardy of being abrogated by Zionist Jewish push to stop anyone questioning their holocaust figures by having laws enacted to imprison those who speak differently. You don't even see this as a problem, Norm. Because you've adopted Jewish paranoia along with the faith that is based on paranoia of Gentiles. Look at all the anti-Gentile statements made in the Torah, Tanakh, the laws against following Gentile customs, the laws against social intercourse with Gentiles, eating with Gentiles, marrying Gentiles. All of it Xenophobia, Norm, which is community paranoia, i.e., crazy.
And that issue is CENTRAL to the proposal you post here. The government- and religion-sponsored indoctrination into outright hatred of Jews and Israelis that has been force-fed to the Palestinians for generations simply makes the one-state idea unworkable from the get-go. From the Jewish point of view, it's simply national suicide.
Should have thought of this way before a single European Jew went to live in Palestine. Europeans are Europeans to Palestinians, Norm. They are invaders with the same European Crusader intent as the Christians had in their attempts to seize control of Palestine in the Crusades. This is the way Palestinians view Israeli Jews and it is 100% accurate and logically, what follows is either capitulation to the invaders or war of resistance. Palestinians never had any say in the 1948 Partition of their country. Not one vote and this, Norm, is a fact that destroys all Zionist rationalizations for their invasion and takeover of Palestine. It was a crooked deal from the get-go and that's why Palestinians will never cave in to Israeli aggression and occupation and stealing of Palestine under the protection of America. America's ability to counter worldwide knowledge of the theft of Palestine is waning every day as Israelis show time and again their true colors as racially motivated aggressors taking land and lives of Palestinians in the way of Eretz Yisrael. T
he one-state solution would turn Israel into a de facto Palestinian state. This isn't an insignificant objection or a quibble. If all of Palestine, that is, all of Israel proper together with the West Bank and Gaza, were to become a single state tomorrow, that would immediately make the Jews a minority among people who hate them and have been taught, encouraged, and even commanded by their religious leaders to do so for generations.
Sorry, but the huge time difference in ethnic hatred is held by Jews taught for 3000 years to hate Gentiles, especially Arabs, (Amulak" remember..) Arab Palestinians and Middle East Arabs in general have been taught to hate Jews because of one thing, the imposition by Western powers of the Jewish state of Israel placed smack in the middle of Muslim Arab nations in order for the West to have a colonial control point to oversee first, the Suez Canal, then all the oil reserves in Middle East countries. Of course Middle Easterners would hate foreign invaders from Europe doing another Crusader trip on them. European Jews and their suckers seem to think Europeans can get away with anything and continue to do what they did for hundreds of years to other non-European communities, i.e., destroy them, genocide them to make way for European hegemony.
A "one-state solution," however tempered by separate "communities" or whatever, would still leave the Israelis a minority in a nation dominated by people who, by and large, hate them -- which is, of course, the very situation which the Jewish refugees from Europe were fleeing in the First Aliyah of 1882-1903. Ignoring or discounting that very obvious and very relevant fact is hardly a fair or evenhanded "solution." It entails completely excluding the point of view of the Jews of Israel, and if the goal is a fair and equitable solution that takes the rights of both sides into account, it's a non-starter. I don't think turning Palestine into 1938 Poland is a particularly good solution.
Again, should have thought of this way before 1948. The idea that the West could unilaterally set up a Jewish state in Palestine is purely racially motivated thinking Arabs were not significant enough, no real armies, to bother with as the West established their new U.N. with their Security Council made up of the winners of WW II firmly controlling it. Palestine is not Europe where the holocaust of Jews happened. Europe is responsible for what Europeans did to European Jews, not Palestinians who have been made scapegoats for Europeans by Zionists. It's not moral and will only stand as long as Western powers do their power trip against Middle Easterners. It can't go on forever as Arab Spring shows and yes, Israeli Jews should think about what they are doing to Pals because the day is coming when Pals will have the numbers to override the Zionist genocidal agenda.
Sorry, but you're still not debating here. If you'd give up the personal attacks and insults -- "You're in with the Nazis now" -- and actually respond to my posts instead of dismissing them, we might have something to say to each other.
No, Norm, nothing to say to a dedicated Zionist who as you know I do equate with Nazis, same M.O., same ideology that thinks one race better than another, i.e, a Nazi mindset. Why else do Jews build settlements for "Jews Only", Norm? Why don't you ever address this issue I bring up continually? Explain to us how Jewish racial selection should be funded and protected by U.S. citizens?
Pretending to respond isn't going to get you there. Yes, Jews owned about 9% of the area that became Israel; but Arabs owned even less, and selectively suppressing that FACT is just another lie by omission.
And don't forget, Norm, that Jewish National Fund buying those hectares from Palestinians were paying peanuts on the dollar for that land. The vast majority of "Israel" was taken by armed invasion and still, e.g., the settlement building continually going on.
Pretending to debate isn't the same as actually debating. I'd say "nice try," but it wasn't.
Go harangue some one else as it really is pointless arguing with you with no logic but blind faith in bad religion running your ability to tell right from wrong.
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cnorman18
Post #27
Ah. Of course. You have endorsed the "Jews were behind 9/11" myth, and now you embrace Holocaust denial. Imagine my surprise -- and sometimes that tag DOES answer everything. If you've never seen evidence that the figure of 6,000,000 Jews murdered by the Nazis is accurate, then you've never looked for any; and it's rather telling that you seized on that reference among all the other material I posted.
If the nature of your beliefs (and your sources) were not already abundantly clear, it certainly is now -- and I note for the record that you STILL refuse to reveal your sources for this material. I think everyone here now understands why that is so.
I don't think I'll go to the trouble to engage further, but I will post this, just to ensure that no one here believes your latest contemptible falsehood, to wit, "...Jewish National Fund buying those hectares from Palestinians were paying peanuts on the dollar for that land." Another blatant and provable lie, from an undisclosed source. The truth, as usual, is otherwise:
You still haven't laid a glove on me, and now you stand exposed for what you are.
Phfft.
If the nature of your beliefs (and your sources) were not already abundantly clear, it certainly is now -- and I note for the record that you STILL refuse to reveal your sources for this material. I think everyone here now understands why that is so.
I don't think I'll go to the trouble to engage further, but I will post this, just to ensure that no one here believes your latest contemptible falsehood, to wit, "...Jewish National Fund buying those hectares from Palestinians were paying peanuts on the dollar for that land." Another blatant and provable lie, from an undisclosed source. The truth, as usual, is otherwise:
That is, as usual, from that notorious Zionist propaganda site, Wikipedia. There is much, much more there about Jewish land purchases in Palestine long before partition, for anyone who is interested. I won't trouble to post it all, but suffice it to say that your propaganda remains unsupported by any credible historical source whatever -- especially since you've never disclosed what your sources might actually be.Jewish organizations often offered to purchase the land from the wealthy owners for more than the actual value of the area. The Jewish land purchasers paid extraordinarily high prices for the uncultivated and marsh land. During a visit to Palestine in 1930, John Hope Simpson, a British politician, noticed: "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay". It was believed that Jews were paying as much as $1,000 to $1,100 per acre in Palestine for non arable land in 1944. At that same time, one could buy rich arable land in Iowa for a mere $110 per acre.
You still haven't laid a glove on me, and now you stand exposed for what you are.
Phfft.
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Re: Why do we give a moral pass to unethical Abrahamic relig
Post #28And isn't it interesting that all three march into battle, oftentimes against one another, believing the same God is on their side?arielmessenger wrote:The Abrahamic religions, all three of them, have been directly or indirectly responsible for the great majority of world wars since Constantin made Christianity the Roman Empire's state religion.
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arielmessenger
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Post #29
cnorman18 wrote: Ah. Of course. You have endorsed the "Jews were behind 9/11" myth, and now you embrace Holocaust denial. Imagine my surprise -- and sometimes that tag DOES answer everything. If you've never seen evidence that the figure of 6,000,000 Jews murdered by the Nazis is accurate, then you've never looked for any; and it's rather telling that you seized on that reference among all the other material I posted.
If the nature of your beliefs (and your sources) were not already abundantly clear, it certainly is now -- and I note for the record that you STILL refuse to reveal your sources for this material. I think everyone here now understands why that is so.
I don't think I'll go to the trouble to engage further, but I will post this, just to ensure that no one here believes your latest contemptible falsehood, to wit, "...Jewish National Fund buying those hectares from Palestinians were paying peanuts on the dollar for that land." Another blatant and provable lie, from an undisclosed source. The truth, as usual, is otherwise:That is, as usual, from that notorious Zionist propaganda site, Wikipedia. There is much, much more there about Jewish land purchases in Palestine long before partition, for anyone who is interested. I won't trouble to post it all, but suffice it to say that your propaganda remains unsupported by any credible historical source whatever -- especially since you've never disclosed what your sources might actually be.Jewish organizations often offered to purchase the land from the wealthy owners for more than the actual value of the area. The Jewish land purchasers paid extraordinarily high prices for the uncultivated and marsh land. During a visit to Palestine in 1930, John Hope Simpson, a British politician, noticed: "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay". It was believed that Jews were paying as much as $1,000 to $1,100 per acre in Palestine for non arable land in 1944. At that same time, one could buy rich arable land in Iowa for a mere $110 per acre.
You still haven't laid a glove on me, and now you stand exposed for what you are.
Phfft.
Talk to real Palestinians, Norm. Your reliance on Wikipedia for information that counters Zionist propaganda is in vain. Zionists have removed any pro-Palestinian information from Wikipedia by sheer volume of Wiki postings, i.e. the same tactic you use, mass posting of Zionist propaganda to drown out pro-Palestinian voices.
I would never rely on Wikipedia or any open source information for accuracy about Palestinian issues. Arabs are only just beginning to learn about how much Zionists have conditioned Americans and the West to override morality when it comes to human rights of Arab peoples.
Norm, you lost the moral argument at the beginning of this discussion, don't you know that by now? You're on the side of the Bad Guys and are trying to defend evil acts. Israel was established by a criminal act, the complete disregarding of the indigenous peoples when Palestine was partitioned in 1948. This constitutes a crime against humanity and that's why Israel will never be accepted by Middle Easterners and never has been. It's a Westerner's criminal enterprise and those who work for it, defend it, are morally in the same league as anyone who defends the European colonizations that genocided millions of people. And this isn't even taking into account the crime of Zionist Jews trying to make Palestinian pay for the European holocaust caused by Europeans against Europeans with not a single Palestinian ever involved in any of the European events harming European Jews.
Norm, when are you going to get religion? When are you going to ask yourself why Palestinians must pay for European atrocities? When are you going to look at Zionism morally instead of as some sort of legal case that can be defended by superior argumentation? Morality, that's yours and Zionism's great stumbling block, your Fatal Flaw. No morality when it comes to willingness to override human rights of victims of Zionist aggression, occupation, and oppression.
You lose, in short, Norm. You cannot win without a moral argument on your side which you do not have. You can continue to try to drown out my posts with your obsessive need to defend the indefensible but we both know that you've lost this debate before you even began to post simply because you've let yourself become the tool of Israeli Bad Guys, proven Israeli leaders with direct connection to Israeli terrorist groups like the Stern Gang and trying to impose a very Bad Idea, Zionism, into our world where racist ideology in service of land stealing has no place.
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cnorman18
Post #30
Right. No substantive response to anything, other than the usual repeatedly unsupported claims -- among them explicit claims that "Jews control the media" and "Jews lie," along with the usual litany of personal attacks and insults.
All of your posturing and sneering and insults and and bogus claims and ignoring proven facts put together are not fooling anyone. You're convincing no one here who didn't already share your blatantly hate-filled beliefs.
Phfft.
All of your posturing and sneering and insults and and bogus claims and ignoring proven facts put together are not fooling anyone. You're convincing no one here who didn't already share your blatantly hate-filled beliefs.
Phfft.
