Heaven & the Resurrection

[JehovahsWitness]

Many believe that the righteous men and women from bible times such as Abraham, died and went to heaven.

If that is the case for you, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a future resurrection on "the last day"? What do you think this refers to.

JOHN 11: 24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

[JehovahsWitness]

This was said by Jesus further on in the verse. Which means you never die so therefor you must be somewhere the instant your physical body is dead. So, your soul or whatever must go to reside somewhere.

No physical bodies will be resurrected because there will be none once rotted away.

Are you SURE that is what it means or is that just you want it to mean or what you were taught it means?

[Donray]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

My interpolation just you have yours. I guess Jesus did not know how to make clear and concise stuff.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

My interpolation just you have yours. I guess Jesus did not know how to make clear and concise stuff.

Are you SURE Jesus did not know how to make clear and concise stuff or is that your interpretation?

[Donray]

[Replying to post 23 by JehovahsWitness]

You don't seem to understand, EVERYTHING in the BIBLE is being interpreted though your religious upbringing, your knowledge of history, etc. In your case, you were brainwashed by your up bringing in the JW cult.

Note: Almost all religious people are brought up (i.e. brainwashed into there religion.) If you are brought up in Iran I will bet that you are brought up Muslim. Unless you came from a home where religion was never discussed you where brainwashed since infancy into a religious mode.

Do you agree that the bible is interpolated by every religion according to their upbringing? You are a JW therefore you WILL interpret the bible how you were told to.

[Checkpoint]

26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

This was said by Jesus further on in the verse. Which means you never die so therefor you must be somewhere the instant your physical body is dead. So, your soul or whatever must go to reside somewhere.

Translations put it that way, "never die", but the Greek actually says "not die forever".

Major difference in meaning.

No physical bodies will be resurrected because there will be none once rotted away.

That is a natural assumption, which is soundly based on reality as anyone knows it.

Resurrection is a supernatural event, which is soundly based on the supernatural One's ability to do what is naturally impossible.

Acts 26:8

Why is it thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?

This just points out all the inconsistences in the bible. It means what you want it to mean or what you were taught it means.

JWs want to mean one thing to match their beliefs and Catholics another to match there beliefs and both are correct in that the bible supports whatever you want.

Do not imagine that description doesn't apply to you as much as it does to others.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 25 by Checkpoint]

Like I said it is your justification and interpretation to support your beliefs.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 24 by Donray]

The facts of the matter will bear our your claim that JW's believe what they are told, no questions asked. This is particularly true of women in the movement. I have handy a copy of "Reasoning from the Scriptures," a major Watchtower publication, which outlines their ideology and which is intended for instructions in their field ministry. Here is what it has to say about women, pp. 432-433:
"Those charged with oversight of a congregation are described in the Bible as being males...Women are counseled "to learn in silence with full submissiveness" at congregational meetings, in that they do not raise questions challenging the men in the congregation. The women are "not to speak" at such meetings if what they might say demonstrates lack of subjection."
It is no surprise, then, that we find the manual defines the field of philosophy as follows: "
'The word philosophy is derived from Greek roots that mean 'love of wisdom. As used here philosophy is not built on acceptance of belief in God, but tries to give people a unified view of teh universe and endeavors to make them critical thinkers. It chiefly means rather than observations in a search for truth."

Since say one, JW propaganda has denounced higher education as unnecessary and a thing of the Devil anyway. Rev. Russell, one of their major founders, stated, "I advise all Christians not to send their children to colleges or universities; if if they do they will risk a great deal through infidelity and unbelief, and will do their children a positive harm. "

In 1969, Mar. 15, p. 171, "The Watchtower states:


"Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school...Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them brainwash you with the Devil's propaganda."

On and on it goes with this kind of propaganda. Reminds me of teh Red Guard in China attacking all the teachers and intellectuals. So bottom line: The Watchtower Society has earned the reputation of being an anti-intellectual, anti-social cult. It is top down leadership, with absolutely no room for questioning and no tolerance for teh critical, analytical skills fostered in institutions of higher education.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 25 by Checkpoint]

Like I said it is your justification and interpretation to support your beliefs.

Believers are not robots. we do think for ourselves too, just not the way you do.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 28 by Checkpoint]

Never said you were a robot. You thoughts as were mine formed through life experience. Part of your experience is being brainwashed into a religion. So your thoughts want to strength your beliefs.

Tell me what your religious beliefs are that differ from your parents.

[onewithhim]

So say some modern scholars. Others say it was mostly written before 70 AD.

Luke says this:

The vast majority think it was written after 70 AD with most of it written between 100 and 300 AD. You can try to change history.

You also are aware that it is unknown who wrote the four gospels.

Even if they were written in 70AD that is 70 years after Jesus supposed death.

I'd like to know just who is "the vast majority." One Bible reference says this: "The first to put the good news about the Christ into writing was Matthew (probably a shortened form of the Hebrew 'Mattithiah,' or could have been 'Mattai' in Aramaic), meaning 'Gift of Jehovah.' He was one of the 12 Apostles chosen by Jesus....While the Gospel credited to Matthew does not name him as the writer, the overwhelming testimony of early church historians stamps him as such....From as far back as Papias of Hierapolis (early 2nd century A.D.) onward, we have a line of early witnesses to the fact that Matthew wrote this Gospel....McClintock and Strong's cyclopedia states: 'Passages from Matthew are quoted by Justin Martyr, by the author of the letter to Diognetus (see Otto's Justin Martyr, vol. ii), by Hegesippus, Irenaeus, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, Clement, Tertullian, and Origen. It is not merely from the matter, but the manner of the quotations, from the calm appeal as to a settled authority, from the absence of all hints of doubt, that we regard it as proved that the book we possess had not been the subject of any sudden change.' The fact that Matthew was an Apostle and, as such, had God's spirit upon him assures that what he wrote would be a faithful record.

"The exact year [that Matthew wrote his Gospel] is not known, but subscriptions at the end of some manuscripts (all later than the tenth century A.D.) say that it was 41 A.D.

"In his work De viris inlustribus, chapter III, Jerome says: 'Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language...' Early in the 3rd century, Origen, in discussing the Gospels, is quoted by Eusebius as saying that the 'first was written according to MATTHEW, who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe.' (The Ecclesiastical History, VI, xxv, 3-6)



I think this is as acceptable as any other scholars of later centuries. I'll post something on Mark, Luke and John at another time.


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