Are God and Satan allies?

[Claire Evans]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

Then we have Jesus who said in John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Clearly Jesus is not being portrayed as being an ally of Satan. If they were, God would be giving Satan the power to deceive because that is what He would have wanted. This is not in accordance with the gospels. The Lord's Prayer goes, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."

This means that God would never use Satan to tempt us and will not purposely put evil in our way because Jesus is asking Him to deliver us from evil.

How do we reconcile this? It's clear that it's because Jews do not believe the devil is evil. To Jews, he is merely a "prosecuting attorney", there only to make people's lives miserable to lead us to God.
We also know that Satan is an omniscient being who is omnipresent. Yet Jews reject this outright. They see that as a negation of monotheism.

There is a incongruity between the Satan in the New Testament and Satan in the OT. Is it because the God in the OT is not the Father of Jesus?

[Zzyzx]

.

So they don't like the truth in here, then?

Correction: Truth is valued. Preaching and ranting are not. Unsubstantiated claims, statements and stories are not.

This is a debate site -- not a revival meeting.

Some people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between 'truth' and their personal opinion.

If you are capable of demonstrating that 'Satan' (or other supposed supernatural entity) influences people, feel free to provide verifiable, credible evidence of such influence -- that precludes alternatives.

[GlorifiedOne]

[Replying to post 21 by Zzyzx]

There is no proof that a Creator or his voice exists. So what is there to debate?

[Yahu]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

No that is not clear at all. It does imply that Satan holds a position of authority on the earth but does NOT imply that they are allies.

Yah gave dominion over the earth away in the garden of Eden. Satan is the one that has taken over that dominion as 'god of this world'.

Job is an interesting story. IMO and study of Job, it appears to me that Yah tricks Satan into sending the plagues onto Job and those same plagues fall on Egypt at the same time and Yah uses those plagues to free His people from slavery. That implies that Yah used Satan to do the evil that fell onto Egypt without sending the plagues directly.

That is one of the differences between Yah and Satan. Yah can see the outcome of events He helps set into motion to fulfill His will.

[Yahu]

It makes sense when one realizes that this story is not a Hebrew story. It's Sumerian.


Enki and Enlil were offspring of the Annunaki. There was a great amount of friction between them.
This was originally the symbol for the Anunnaki-Sirian creator god, EA, or EN.KI (who has become an Archetype), was the chief of the magicians, "the one who knows," and infamous for being the serpent of the Garden of Eden who created lifeforms in test tubes half a million years ago with his half-sister Ninharsag, at the suggestion of his son, Marduk, to create humans to be the workers for the gods. (The symbol is also based upon the winged globe for the planet Nibiru, the symbol of the royal Anunnaki family.)

In the Garden of Eden situation, Enlil was furious that Enki permitted humans to have access to knowledge, the mixing of the Anunnaki with human genes, thereby becoming more "godly," and equal to the Anunnaki. To strike back at Enki, and in the attempt to regain his power over humans, Enlil vowed to tarnish Enkis reputation by spreading the idea that the serpent of wisdom was evil. Enlil tried to wipe out knowledge of the DNA coding Enki gave humans, and of what the Anunnaki used in order to have longevity (gold).

Job isn't a Summerian story. Job was a Hebrew but not an Israelite. His friend Eliphaz was Essau's eldest son, also a Hebrew but of mixed Canaanite descent via his mother and a pagan. The timeframe of Job is during the captivity of Israel in Egypt during the later life of Eliphaz.

The Annunaki were post flood. Anu (Heavens) and Ki (earth) where titles of Noah and His wife Na'amah and goes back to the covenant of the rainbow between Yah and mankind or Heavens and Earth with Noah and Na'amah as the primary parallel on earth in their covenant. The Anunaki are the offspring of Anu and Ki.

Even the Summerians had Anu with the consorts of Ki and Nammu (Namma or Na'amah in Hebrew). Ki was just a nickname of Na'amah. Ki, mother earth worship is all rooted in ancestor worship of Na'amah as mother of all mankind and the gods. Noah was displaced as Na'amah's husband after Canaan castrated him and she became the consort of one of the angels that had guarded Eden pre-flood and gave birth to the Nephlilim gods post-flood. So that angel displaced Noah as Anu, the representative of Heavens. The original Anunaki was a reference to Shem, Ham and Japeth but was later replaced with the Nephilim offspring.

She gave birth to the divine Nephilim twins. That would be Apollo and Artemis in the Greek pantheon. Nimrod was a son of the female nephilim, thus a 'mighty man' and the source of his mother's title 'queen of heaven' as queen mother at Babel. Babel was the source of the ancient paganism that got spread into many languages at the fall of the tower. The four angels that cause the post-flood Nephilim were locked up and the ghosts of their dead children took over the realm of the spirits of the dead as the most powerful nephilim spirits. Those four angels are not let back out until the tribulation. Ki was Asherah to the Canaanites with the twins being Molech and Ashtoreth with her son Baal in the Baalim/Canaanite pantheon.

Of course the Greeks called those four angels, Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and Hera.

[ttruscott]

There's no way that Jehovah would have spent time speaking with satan as in Job.
Why would Light need to speak with Darkness? Why would Good need to communicate with Evil?

Ahhhh the logical steps to this answer include:
Background:
1. The sinful elect became sinners (evil as any demon) when they rebelled against HIS decision to judge/damn the reprobate demons. They chose their friends who had chosen against YHWH over HIS plans for them in a deeply idolatrous fashion.

2. The judgement was then postponed until the sinful elect could be brought to holiness so they would be free from the effects of the call for the judgment against all sinners.

3. GOD understood that the best way to bring HIS sinful elect to understand that their love for the demonic reprobate was misplaced as the demons would never change, never repent, never give themselves to pure righteousness nor GODly love, was to have them live with the reprobate and learn by experience what the effects of their choice to be evil now had over them.

The reason for the story:
So until the reprobate are proven to be eternally evil, the sinful elect see little need to listen to the call for their repentance. The story of Job is the story about how GOD with minimal input proved to the whole world the depths of Satan's evil and animosity to anyone whom GOD approved. His great fury shows his eternal determination to wipe out all of GOD's followers.

The lessons:
Just knowing the YHWH approved of Job was enough for Satan to monster the most holy old man in all of history making it plain to the sinful elect that Satan would never repent and was eternally evil, fit only to be banished from polite society for all eternity. As well, it taught HIS church that evi is restrained by HIM and 'needs permission' to act and that though the full force of Satan is against you, GOD can see you through.

This is why YHWH spoke to Satan knowing what he would do in reply.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 25 by ttruscott

Do you believe that God created all humanity in the body of Adam?

[Claire Evans]

More like a prosecutor [Satan] and a defendant [Jehovah] in front of a jury [assembly of angels].

Read closely the account in Job, particularly the following accusations, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face."

These are accusations that Satan wanted answered. Satan wants them answered in the court of public opinion. Why else wait to bring it up during a day 'the sons of God came before Jehovah'? Certainly Satan wanted Job to fail. Jehovah on the other hand had complete faith Job would do the right think. So allies? Hardly! More like bitter rivals. Rivals where Jehovah and Job came out victorious and Satan lost. If they were allies then all parties would have been winners, don't you think? But Satan was proven completely wrong in the case of Job. This is just one of Satan's many attempts to prove Jehovah as a bad ruler. Satan trying to make a case that men only love God because of the blessings they receive and not because of true love.

God doesn't care what Satan wants answered.

Hold it right there.

Proverbs 27:11 says God does care, "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me." In Chapter 1 of Job Jehovah is even showing Satan a righteous person in Job. If God didn't care, then God wouldn't have shown Satan anyone.

What proof do you have that he doesn't care to reply? If you don't have scriptural proof then it's just your opinion. My belief is that only the Bible can speak for God and the Bible says God does make replies to Satan. Furthermore, according to Proverbs 27:11, every time do what God says we are making a reply to Satan for Jehovah. Not only is it an answer for Satan but for everyone who taunts God or is considering to taunt God. It will also serve as an answer for the future would be taunters.

Proverbs is also from a Jewish perspective.

God does not reply to Satan directly. Satan doesn't say he is going to do something and then God must reply. It cannot be a deal like in Job. What happens is that Satan can do something in the life of those who love and obey Christ and it will only be permitted by God if there is spiritual refinement. It is not to taunt Satan but to benefit of the believer. Would you make deals with your arch enemy?

Why do people claim the Bible is the authority? Do we not really know God through the Holy Spirit, the Teacher? The Bible has deception and errors in it. We need to learn what we can and what we cannot trust in the Bible.

[Claire Evans]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

No that is not clear at all. It does imply that Satan holds a position of authority on the earth but does NOT imply that they are allies.

This is the Jewish belief about Satan:

The Satan is described in only a few places in the Hebrew Scriptures. In every instance, he is an angel who works FOR Gd, not against Gd , and must get permission from Gd for everything that he does. Chronicles, Job, Psalms, and Zechariah are the only places where The Satan is mentioned. In each instance, the job description of The Satan is to act like what we now call a Prosecuting Attorney, or District Attorney, and accuse and show evidence against the defendant. Furthermore, like a D.A., The Satan must obtain permission from Gd, the Judge, to begin a sting operation."

For God means Satan is an ally of God. Let's think about it. If a Christian is about to be beheaded by ISIS, do you think Satan asked God for permission first to do so?

http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation7.html

Yah gave dominion over the earth away in the garden of Eden. Satan is the one that has taken over that dominion as 'god of this world'.

The Garden of Eden is Sumerian. It's a pagan story.

Job is an interesting story. IMO and study of Job, it appears to me that Yah tricks Satan into sending the plagues onto Job and those same plagues fall on Egypt at the same time and Yah uses those plagues to free His people from slavery. That implies that Yah used Satan to do the evil that fell onto Egypt without sending the plagues directly.

That is one of the differences between Yah and Satan. Yah can see the outcome of events He helps set into motion to fulfill His will.

God can't trick Satan. Satan is omniscient. Have you ever thought that Yahweh in the OT is not the same as Yahweh? Don't really like promoting myself but this will give you a way better idea to what I mean.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy ... ient-truth

[marco]

For God means Satan is an ally of God. Let's think about it. If a Christian is about to be beheaded by ISIS, do you think Satan asked God for permission first to do so?

Well I journeyed through the mythology reference where various mountains seem to furnish the entertainment of gods. I suppose one can become wrapped up in one's interests to the extent that they intrude on reality.

Satan and God have no place in the atrocities of ISIS and to introduce them is simply to give some credence to the cry, Allah Akbar.

I assume that we should simply look for evidence in the Bible of Satanic alliances with God and of course we find such in Job. It is amusing to hear that Satan is omniscient, but at least we refrain from giving him a forked tail.

[Yahu]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

No that is not clear at all. It does imply that Satan holds a position of authority on the earth but does NOT imply that they are allies.

This is the Jewish belief about Satan:

The Satan is described in only a few places in the Hebrew Scriptures. In every instance, he is an angel who works FOR Gd, not against Gd , and must get permission from Gd for everything that he does. Chronicles, Job, Psalms, and Zechariah are the only places where The Satan is mentioned. In each instance, the job description of The Satan is to act like what we now call a Prosecuting Attorney, or District Attorney, and accuse and show evidence against the defendant. Furthermore, like a D.A., The Satan must obtain permission from Gd, the Judge, to begin a sting operation."

For God means Satan is an ally of God. Let's think about it. If a Christian is about to be beheaded by ISIS, do you think Satan asked God for permission first to do so?

http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation7.html

Yah gave dominion over the earth away in the garden of Eden. Satan is the one that has taken over that dominion as 'god of this world'.

The Garden of Eden is Sumerian. It's a pagan story.

Job is an interesting story. IMO and study of Job, it appears to me that Yah tricks Satan into sending the plagues onto Job and those same plagues fall on Egypt at the same time and Yah uses those plagues to free His people from slavery. That implies that Yah used Satan to do the evil that fell onto Egypt without sending the plagues directly.

That is one of the differences between Yah and Satan. Yah can see the outcome of events He helps set into motion to fulfill His will.

God can't trick Satan. Satan is omniscient. Have you ever thought that Yahweh in the OT is not the same as Yahweh? Don't really like promoting myself but this will give you a way better idea to what I mean.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy ... ient-truth

I do agree that Satan is a prosecutor in the heavenly court. Satan isn't even a name but a title of that prosecutor. HaSatan just means 'The Accuser'. It is a position he took from his father.

Lucifer is just the title of the ancient pagan sun god, the 'shining one'/'light bringer'. Lucifer was 'ben Shachar', 'son of the Morning' and Shachar was a Canaanite deity equivalent to Zeus. Lucifer is the Latin title equivalent to Pheobus in the Greek. The 'king of the abyss' is Apollyon by his Greek name and the Roman's even called his twin sister Diana Luciferah, ie the Greek goddess Artemis.

Job 38 is clear that is was the Morning the shook the wicked from the skirts of the Earth, ie the offspring of Shachar and Erets and 'The Morning' let the angels in song at the laying of the foundation of the earth. Shachar, 'The Morning' was a great angel. He was 'the Satan' cast down 'as lightning', as the 'god of Lightning'. The Syrians called him Hadad, 'the thunderer'. He is Anu to the Summerians.

The current Satan is not omniscient. He is just a ghost of a dead pagan demi-god/nephilim. The only reason that Satan is still around is because of his human half that wont stand judgement until the appointed time for mankind to stand judgement. Because of his angelic half of his parentage, he took over the role as Satan from his father when his father was imprisoned for his sins of having children.

The four post flood angels that were imprisoned for sins were bound at the Euphrates (at Babel) while according to Peter the pre-flood angels that sinned are bound in Tartarus, the Greek term for the prison of the Titans from the previous age. The Jews still see the former Satan as the agents of Yah but he was displaced by the ghost of his dead half-breed son. Zeus was Satan, the agent of Yah on earth who hasn't been around since Babel. It was the representatives of Yah that Lucifer attempted to put his throne above, the 'stars of Yah'. He took the role of Satan because MANKIND was given dominion over the earth and he is descent of woman, born on the earth.

Job 38:
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

It was 'the Morning', 'the Dayspring' that led the stars in song. It was 'The Morning' that was commanded by Yah. It was 'The Morning' that had children with 'earth' and brought forth 'the wicked'.

The Morning was the Satan that was the agent and ally of Yah but he fell into error, was cast down and put in prison and won't be let out until the tribulation.

Re 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.


While Lucifer is called 'the man'.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Lucifer is the son of the former Satan and is classified as a 'man' that dies, is buried, his body eaten by worms, descends into Sheol and the kings in Sheol say, 'Is this THE MAN...'?

He is no more omniscient then your dead grandmother.

ALL fallen angels are in prison according to Jude and Peter. Satan isn't a fallen angels but a spirit, ghost of a dead nephilim who usurped his angelic father's position as Satan.