Eternal Conscious Torment

[The Tanager]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 20 by 2ndRateMind]

"Yes, I realise I am on 'shaky ground', as far as literalists are concerned. Yet, I can only interpret the Bible through the lens of my conception of God as I have come to know Him, which is through the Old Testament (awesome and terrible), and though the New Testament (the just, merciful, redeeming and loving father of all humanity), and through my own experience of Him (an ecstasy of love, equal parts agony and joy at our human affairs). "

I understand what you are saying, you read OT through your spiritual faith,
but what do you think should be done with the books of Samuel.
Should they be left out the Bible.

[2ndRateMind]

I understand what you are saying, you read OT through your spiritual faith...

As we all do, whether we realise it or not.

...but what do you think should be done with the books of Samuel[?]
Should they be left out the Bible[?]

Of course not. Only by knowing from where we have come, can we appreciate the progress we have made, and get some inkling as to the journey that still lies before us. I just counsel against seeing OT ethics, the state of the art thousands of years ago, as being definitive in all places and all times.

Cheers, 2RM.

[William]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

I don't think annihilation is possible.

The reason I think this has to do with my understanding that all consciousnesses are aspects of GOD consciousness and GOD consciousness is eternal, therefor all consciousness has the same attribute.

I think this universe is within the mind of a GOD, and that within this universe are many aspects of GOD, including each one of us.

I think that all 'minds of GOD' are subject to the same properties - as in, they are able to create things in their mind and experience these things as real.

In relation to that, our individual minds are interconnected with the mind of the local GOD and when we depart our experience in this universe, we are likely to experience another reality in the mind of that GOD, - a GOD which we are all intimately related to at a most familiar level.

Once we are free from the experience of being in human form, we remain individuate units of consciousness and move to the next phase where our minds 'return' to the mind of the local GOD (Earth Entity) and our individual beliefs become instantly manifested as creations we are - as individuals - ultimately responsible for creating. This just happens as a natural attribute of the mind of the individual merging with the mind of the planet entity, which effectively allows for the individual to spontaneously create and experience their next reality.

This is why I think that there are many heavens and hells as well as other states of reality which individuate consciousnesses create and experience as 'afterlife' and these experiences unfold through belief and thought processes no longer suppressed/limited by the human instrument and the physical universe.

I understand this as being part of an overall rehabilitation process which the planet entity has been involved with and that these spontaneous individual creations are not permanent inescapable fixtures and are also not the desired outcome the planet entity wants for individuate aspects of its overall self. They are just unavoidable consequences of natural enough processes.

I get most of my data re this from reading the stories of those who claim to regularly be able to 'Astrally' project themselves into what they call the 'astral universe' although I have not seen any explain such as being in the mind of a GOD. They do however regularly report that what they think or believe has an immediate spontaneous affect on what they experience while in this alternate reality.

They also report on hells and heavens and other things created in that realm, and that there are different ways in which individuals experience the realm. Some only know the reality of that which they have created. Others have learned that they created their reality and have since removed themselves from it. Others act as guides/helpers. Others act as observers and give advice. Other have merged their individuate consciousness into a group consciousness. They remain individuals, but they are also sharing their individual minds with other individual minds and as a result are essentially one individual mind consisting of many.

But certainly their are many instances of individuals experiencing conscious torment and believe that they will do so forever.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 3 by JP Cusick]

The problem here is that Jesus's actions become pointless.

The verse you picked is contradicted quite quickly.

1 cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

[Claire Evans]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

It's because I believe consciousness can never be destroyed. This is espoused also by scientists.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2123380 ... ter-death/


"Dr Hans-Peter Drr, former head of the institute, has said: "What we consider the here and now, this world, it is actually just the material level that is comprehensible.

"The beyond is an infinite reality that is much bigger.

The body dies but the spiritual quantum field continues. In this way, I am immortal.

Energy cannot be destroyed but merely take another form.

For this reason, I do not believe in oblivion.


Matthew 13:42New International Version (NIV)

42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is saying there is suffering after death.

To the evil, oblivion is a great form of punishment. They don't want to be with God anyway so why would they want eternal life with Him? People commit suicide because they think oblivion is a reprieve.

[The Tanager]

I don't think annihilation is possible.

The reason I think this has to do with my understanding that all consciousnesses are aspects of GOD consciousness and GOD consciousness is eternal, therefor all consciousness has the same attribute.

A big part of whether everything else you say is true is whether your understanding here is true. You talk about the support for this being claims of astral projection, although those claims don't talk about this being an aspect of GOD consciousness. The first question, then, is why should I believe these claims of astral projections? And the second is, if these are true, why should I believe the further step you take that this is in the mind of GOD?

[The Tanager]

It's because I believe consciousness can never be destroyed. This is espoused also by scientists.

Some scientists seem to be saying this and others looking at the same data would disagree. That hints towards this maybe being more of a philosophical move than a scientific one.

"Dr Hans-Peter Drr, former head of the institute, has said: "What we consider the here and now, this world, it is actually just the material level that is comprehensible.

"The beyond is an infinite reality that is much bigger.

The body dies but the spiritual quantum field continues. In this way, I am immortal.

Energy cannot be destroyed but merely take another form.

For this reason, I do not believe in oblivion.

But why believe our soul is physical energy?

Matthew 13:42New International Version (NIV)

42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is saying there is suffering after death.

But I don't see this passage saying people will weep and gnash forever.

To the evil, oblivion is a great form of punishment. They don't want to be with God anyway so why would they want eternal life with Him?

Suicide would be a special case to consider. But I don't think that we can form our whole theory on one special case. Just like the existence of masochists for your view. We can explore that further if you think it vital to the discussion.

If you are saying that eternal conscious torment makes sense because God would want them to suffer for their evil, then annihilation is still a level of suffering/punishment/bad consequence. It's not as much suffering as other scenarios, but they still don't get what they wanted to continue living and indulging in their selfish desires.

If you want to take it a step further and say that eternal conscious torment makes sense because God would want them to suffer the most possible suffering for their evil, then I would ask why you think that.

[JP Cusick]

[Replying to post 3 by JP Cusick]

The problem here is that Jesus's actions become pointless.

It is just a matter of perspective.

When we view Jesus and the Father as aggressively working to save every lost sheep of humanity then none of it is pointless.

But if one views it as an angry God and His wilful Son sending humans into a Hell of eternal punishing then yes everything about Jesus becomes pointless.

The verse you picked is contradicted quite quickly.

1 cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is just talking about our physical body here-and-now, because our body is to be the temple of God.

As in a drug user or adulterer or a drunkard or any sinning - then their body gets destroyed.

And it says destroyed - not burning in torment for all eternity - certainly not.

In the text of 1 Corinthians 3:15-16, it tells that the fires of God as in the "Lake of fire" means to clean and purify the person so that the person become "dead to sin" and everyone gets saved.

[2timothy316]

I have not seen an in any post where the following was brought up. But we should examine where the idea of 'torment' comes from in the Bible.

Many do not know that the term 'torment', 'torture' and 'tormentor' can also mean jailed.

Example: Matthew 18:34
NAS: handed him over to the torturers until
KJV: him to the tormentors, till
INT: him to the jailers until that

Greek word:basanists
http://biblehub.com/greek/930.htm

That Greek word basanists comes from the word basaniz.
http://biblehub.com/greek/928.htm

So I find it interesting that it is entirely possible where we see the word 'torment', 'torture' and 'tormentor' we might be able to use words 'jail', 'jailed' and 'jailer'.

Of course not all can be replaced by 'jail'.

Example where jailed could be used: Matthew 8:29
"And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment [Jail] us before the time?" (Compare Revelation 20:2)

Example of where jailed wouldn't be appropriate: Revelation 11:10
"And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." (Im quite sure two prophets will not 'jail' the entire Earth, so tormented as we know it in English fits.)

Evidently, in the Greek language the same word can hold two pretty different meanings. The context determines the meaning. We have many words in English that are spelled the same but their meaning changes due to the context. The word 'down' is an example. A person can 'look' down. A person can also feel a bit 'down'.

[William]

[Replying to post 26 by The Tanager]

I don't think annihilation is possible.

The reason I think this has to do with my understanding that all consciousnesses are aspects of GOD consciousness and GOD consciousness is eternal, therefor all consciousness has the same attribute.

A big part of whether everything else you say is true is whether your understanding here is true.
You talk about the support for this being claims of astral projection, although those claims don't talk about this being an aspect of GOD consciousness.

The first question, then, is why should I believe these claims of astral projections?

You do believe some things, so I assume you have reasons for believing those things and ask the same question "why should I believe?" in relation to everything you believe.

So to begin with, your question needs to focus on "Why should I believe we are all aspects of the One Consciousness, which is GOD?" and discover the answer to that first, then you can proceed to the question you ask regarding astral projection.


There are many reason for my believing we are all aspects of the one undivided consciousness which I think of as First Source Consciousness (FSC) - the overall GOD-Consciousness - which I expand on in my thread here:

Separating any idea of GOD from All other Consciousness.

Which includes subject matter such as:

Changing Mindsets
Another example of separating GOD consciousness from all other consciousnesses.
The problem of good and evil is ongoing...
Is the story of GOD verse DEVIL realistic?
No - not binary. Yes, ONE.
Explaining the Local God Earth Entity in relation to the many religious ideas of GOD

I also make mention of this idea here:

The Dangers of Separating Human Consciousness From Any Idea of GOD

Which includes subject matter:

What is 'The Soul' and is it Immortal?
Having a GOD separate from its creation begs the question, "Where did GOD source the consciousness which is in the creation?"
"Hi There! I am 'GOD', your creator, and if you don't believe me I will send you to hell." Have a pleasant day....

And the second is, if these are true, why should I believe the further step you take that this is in the mind of GOD?

The first step is to deal with the notion that the consciousness you are is separate from the consciousness GOD is.

Why should you believe you are separate from GOD?