Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 200 by dio9]



[center]

A part of the God delusion is to deny inconvenient bits of reality[/center]

First time posting on this thread 'cause I don't like thinking about hell. A wise guide once told me ' don't think about Satan or you will find him".

A wise man might have told you "Don't think about the elephant in the room."
You were given very bad advice. You may want to be more discerning as to whom you assume are "wise".

Satan is part of the Bible stories.
To deny reality is ... not a good idea.


[center]Denying reality is a part of "delusion". [/center]

The only hell , is the hell we create for ourselves.

Is that what the Bible says?
I think that there is mention of a Hell in THAT.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 200 by dio9]



[center]

A part of the God delusion is to deny inconvenient bits of reality[/center]

First time posting on this thread 'cause I don't like thinking about hell. A wise guide once told me ' don't think about Satan or you will find him".

A wise man might have told you "Don't think about the elephant in the room."
You were given very bad advice. You may want to be more discerning as to whom you assume are "wise".

Satan is part of the Bible stories.
To deny reality is ... not a good idea.


[center]Denying reality is a part of "delusion". [/center]

The only hell , is the hell we create for ourselves.

Is that what the Bible says?
I think that there is mention of a Hell in THAT.

hello do you really believe in Satan? Jesus never talked about " hell". He talked about wasted lives , garbage lives , but not an eternal hell, hell is inconsistent with his message.
Some people may remain in their hell forever , but whose fault is that, God's ?
I repeat , who and what we know as God doesn't want anybody to go to hell.

I kind of like the Hindu idea of second chances.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 202 by dio9]

Jesus never talked about " hell".

Of course he did.

Here is but one example:

Mark 9:

43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

[shnarkle]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

I don't have a brand of religion, but if I did my brand would have a God that would let the unbelievers go to hell for eternity if they wanted to. God would let them choose.

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

This is a fascinating question in that it seems to presuppose the existence of hell. I could be wrong here, but my impression is that your question presupposes that God has already created hell. Why? For me to choose to retain it or dispatch it to irrelevance? I think I would want to know why God created it in the first place. What was God's purpose in creating it in the first place? If God created Hell on a whim, then I'd get rid of it, but then I don't have a capricious God in mind. If God created hell because he had to, then he's not much of a god to begin with if he's subject to some law above him. The law that God has become subject to would be what would determine if hell could be abolished or not. If I am above that law then I am now the one who is capricious. If hell is there as an option, then I'd leave it alone, and let people decide for themselves where they want to go.

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

In your first example you are referring to a hell where a drop of water can quench one's thirst. This doesn't sound like hell to me. I need a whole lot more than a drop of water to quench my thirst here on earth. In your second example, the lake of fire doesn't just swallow up evil it swallows up death and the grave as well. I think it is interesting to note that everyone that has done wrong is swallowed up into the lake of fire and then the last things to be swallowed up are death and the grave itself.

This doesn't seem to me to be the correct order for your understanding. In other words, death and the grave have to be swallowed up first , THEN all the wicked will be swallowed up and tortured for eternity. In this case it's the other way around so everything that goes in is consumed by the flames, and ultimately death as well. This seem rather straightforward and obvious. How can death live forever? It just doesn't make any sense. We would have to redefine death to mean life, wouldn't we?

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever.

How about a lifetime on earth filled with suffering? Does that have any logic to it? C.S. Lewis asks a similar question with regards to animals. Why do animals suffer? It isn't like they're out scheming to do harm to others, bear false witness, etc.

During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

I think children have enough to be afraid of with the idea of death. How early does one want to introduce the idea or the fact that we're all doing to die to a child? I don't see the bible teaching literal eternal torment. Jesus didn't come to save people from eternal torment, but to save people from death. The penalty for eating of the fruit in the garden of Eden wasn't eternal torment; it was death. The idea is that when you're dead, your dead forever.

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

No, but it's also not what I would characterize as an accurate representation of what the text is stating. When Jesus tells parables, he explains to his disciples that he uses this method because everyone isn't supposed to get it, at least not now. It isn't up to Jesus who gets the message and who doesn't get it. We all have free will, and can exercise our free will when necessary, but our free will is irrelevant to whether or not someone gets the message. Paul says, "not by will or effort" (Rom.9). Paul points out quite rightly that no one wants anything to do with this God. Wouldn't you say that this is the case with you? Paul is quite perceptive, isn't he?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

A Christian that states they would do away with hell is demonstrating that they think they are God, and a capricious one at that. Sadists need masochists, and masochists need sadists. I would not deprive either of their voluntary relationship by abolishing one or the other. I wouldn't even bother telling them that what they're doing to each other is a bit sick. This isn't my concern. God can point that out to them, and if God chooses to do this, they're going to get the message; that's how omnipotent gods operate, i.e. according to their own will. My will is irrelevant.

Regardless of whether you want to introduce God into the equation, we have science to confirm this fact. Nobody seems to bat an eye when we see the proofs presented so why should anyone care if there is a God somewhere Who ordained all of this? More importantly, the reality is that if that is the case, then God is the only one Who does care.

[ttruscott]

hello do you really believe in Satan? Jesus never talked about " hell". He talked about wasted lives , garbage lives , but not an eternal hell, hell is inconsistent with his message.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." proves that from the Biblical pov, Jesus did indeed speak of an everlasting afterlife with an everlasting punishment just as long as the everlasting life which is presumed to be eternal.

Many people cannot / will not hear all He had to say about consequences.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 202 by dio9]



[center]


There might be different Bibles out there...[/center]

hello do you really believe in Satan?

I very often start my sentences by "as an agnostic, an atheist and a skeptic"... because I am an agnostic, an atheist and a skeptic.

So, of COURSE, I don't believe in any gods, goddesses, or demons.
I leave those beliefs for the theists.


_____________

FOR THE RECORD:

I do NOT believe in the "Satan" to be found in Bible stories.

_____________

Jesus never talked about " hell".

Then we aren't reading the same Bible.
Try this:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical- ... le-verses/

Some people may remain in their hell forever , but whose fault is that, God's ?

In my opinion based on what the Bible says, yes.

I repeat , who and what we know as God doesn't want anybody to go to hell.

I don't agree.
I repeat, I don't agree.

I kind of like the Hindu idea of second chances.

I am not talking about Hinduism.
I repeat.. not talking about Hinduism.

I don't know what Bible you read.

[ttruscott]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

I don't have a brand of religion, but if I did my brand would have a God that would let the unbelievers go to hell for eternity if they wanted to. God would let them choose.

Who would ever choose an eternal hell? Yet I contend that you are correct!

It seems that if we could only chose by our free will to go to hell or it is indeed unjust, that hell was a consequence to another choice that overrode the fear of hell which must not have been proven.

I therefore contend that our choice was to accept YHWH was our creator GOD with the consequence of becoming HIS elect under HIS promise of salvation OR to reject HIS claims to be our GOD by trusting instead to the belief HE was not a GOD but a false god and a liar and none of HIS warnings of the dire consequences of hell nor HIS promises of salvation had any merit in reality at all.

No one chose hell, some just chose to reject YHWH as their GOD expecting it to all blow over but willing to go to hell rather than bow to HIM if HE ever proved to be GOD.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 207 by ttruscott]



[center]
Hell is a threat from a mindless thug.[/center]

Who would ever choose an eternal hell? Yet I contend that you are correct!

I agree.

If Hell is real, nobody in his or her right mind would think that's a choice to take.
It's extortion. God is depicted as a MINDLESS THUG:

"Look, you can pay me a hundred dollars, or you choose for me to shoot you in the head. Your choice.

Free will."

To me, that's nothing but a very sad joke.
It's not MORAL, it's not RIGHT, It's WRONG, and if we are to take it SERIOUSLY, quite stupid.

Whoever wrote the Bible were way better at poetry than reasoning, that's for sure.

[ttruscott]

I think I would want to know why God created it in the first place. What was God's purpose in creating it in the first place? If God created Hell on a whim, then I'd get rid of it, but then I don't have a capricious God in mind.

In short, I do not believe GOD created hell at all. Before there was an eternal evil there is no need for a hell. Unless our created reality is infinite, then it has an edge past which is nothing created. If this uncreated non-territory is referred to by the words "the outer darkness" then it was a place outside of all creation in which the only thing in it will be those who made themselves eternally evil by their free will decision to reject YHWH's claims to deity.

If God created hell because he had to, then he's not much of a god to begin with if he's subject to some law above him. The law that God has become subject to would be what would determine if hell could be abolished or not.

There is no law 'above' GOD but HE is holy which means HE will never go against what it means to be GOD but will always act in accord with GODly righteousness, loving kindness and justice. HE is not subject to a law but HE cannot stop being HIMself and since the law is a perfect expression of HIMself, it doesn't bind HIM though it perfectly expresses HIM - that is, HE binds the law not the other way round.

HIS character as unwilling to abide evil, especially an eternal evil that will totally corrupt all of reality if left to fester, makes the outer darkness an absolute necessity whether it is a created place or not.

[Tetragrammaton]

[Replying to post 207 by ttruscott]



[center]
Hell is a threat from a mindless thug.[/center]

Who would ever choose an eternal hell? Yet I contend that you are correct!

I agree.

If Hell is real, nobody in his or her right mind would think that's a choice to take.
It's extortion. God is depicted as a MINDLESS THUG:

"Look, you can pay me a hundred dollars, or you choose for me to shoot you in the head. Your choice.

Free will."

To me, that's nothing but a very sad joke.
It's not MORAL, it's not RIGHT, It's WRONG, and if we are to take it SERIOUSLY, quite stupid.

Whoever wrote the Bible were way better at poetry than reasoning, that's for sure.

To me, that's nothing but a very sad joke.

Yep I have a small clip that illustrates it very nicely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJgLBoB_Pw

Whoever wrote the Bible were way better at poetry than reasoning, that's for sure.

Not really, it depends on the reason why the authors is introducing the idea of the believer to be a submissive slave to the fascist roman authorities.

For the authorities it was quite convenient and very reasonable thing to do.