Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 218 by dio9]

I think egotism and altruism are one, not two exclusive orders of reality. I have no trouble in assuming God creates for God's own benefit. If God could be as happy, whole, and complete without a universe as with one, then why did God cerate it? How is it meaningful to God if it contributes nothing? I view God as truly loving, and someone loving needs a lover. Hence, God could never be complete without a universe. And If it is all just for us and not for God, then God needs to butt out.

I view God as a social-relational being. God arises out of his or her relationships with others. Hence, God cannot be happy unless we are happy. We also are social-relational beings. Hence, as I said egotism and altruism are one. We cannot be happy unless our brothers and sisters are happy. To think of yourself is to think of others and vice versa.

[Claire Evans]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

I acknowledge these scriptures but how can an omniscient God change His mind? One changing their mind indicates indecisiveness thinking their previous decisions was better than the one they are making now. If God is absolute, then how can He change His mind? There are no scriptures in the New Testament as far as I know that indicates God can change His mind.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 222 by Claire Evans]



[center]
Assuming that God is sane[/center]

I acknowledge these scriptures but how can an omniscient God change His mind?

Yeah, an omniscient being wouldn't have to.
Ever.

But we are assuming that this omniscient being is sane.
And we don't have to assume that.

An omniscient but completely deranged being might.

One changing their mind indicates indecisiveness thinking their previous decisions was better than the one they are making now.

Another reason is denialism.
Maybe this omniscient being doesn't accept certain facts.

He knows them.. but denies them.
And then, maybe for some reason... comes to accept reality.

It's very strange...but who knows the mind of God, right?
He might need some psychotherapy.

If God is absolute, then how can He change His mind?

Meh, he can be "absolutely" insane, or even "absolutely" irrational.

There are no scriptures in the New Testament as far as I know that indicates God can change His mind.

There are no scriptures in any testament as far as I know that indicates God can't.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 218 by dio9]

I think egotism and altruism are one, not two exclusive orders of reality. I have no trouble in assuming God creates for God's own benefit. If God could be as happy, whole, and complete without a universe as with one, then why did God cerate it? How is it meaningful to God if it contributes nothing? I view God as truly loving, and someone loving needs a lover. Hence, God could never be complete without a universe. And If it is all just for us and not for God, then God needs to butt out.

I view God as a social-relational being. God arises out of his or her relationships with others. Hence, God cannot be happy unless we are happy. We also are social-relational beings. Hence, as I said egotism and altruism are one. We cannot be happy unless our brothers and sisters are happy. To think of yourself is to think of others and vice versa.

I don't know about egoism and altruism are the same thing , but completely agree that God cannot be happy unless we are happy.
As for the question about changing his/her mind , God's mind has always been for us and the fulfillment of our desire to be happy. In other words when people do stupid things , God's mind doesn't change it continually remains for us to be blessed. God's mind simply is that humanity to should be blessed.

The reason we are not blessed is not God's fault, according to the garden story in Genesis it is our fault. What I like to call our bag of angst causes humans to suffer. God doesn't change his mind , as you posted above , God is like someone who wants a lover.

What we need to do is transcend our consciousness.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 221 by hoghead1]


[center]
In this religious English, opposites can be identical.[/center]

I think egotism and altruism are one, not two exclusive orders of reality.

What a very strange idea.

In this particular religious English, words with common English opposite defintions can be used to mean something identical.

That's like saying up and down are one, that black is one with white, and the law of identity, that is used in logic .... meh... not used in this version of English.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 222 by Claire Evans]

There are around 100 biblical passages that speak of God changing his or her mind, e.g., Gen. 6:6, Hosea 11:8. Malachi 3:5-7 is very interesting here. Some read only the statement "I, the Lord change not" and simply assume the passage is denying change in God. But that is not the case. God persists in certain attitudes, an in this consistency does not vary. But rather than affirming divine immutability, the passage also affirms of divine change. "Return to me, that I might return to you" implies that if we change in a certain direction, God will change in an appropriate way.

Think of it this way. If God does not change, then God cannot utter a single sentence. Consider the changes you go through in uttering a single sentence. Also, assuming God makes a decision means that God moves from indecisiveness to decision, which is a change. That's the way the decision-making process works.

Omniscience also implies change. I believe all creatures have genuine freedom. WE have to decide for ourselves. God does not decide for us. Hence, ahead of time, God knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibilities, not things set in cement. Ahead of time, the future is open-ended, indeterminate, both for us and also for God. So, any time, we make a decision, God moves from knowing something as mere possibility to knowing it as actual. I think the Bible honors this in its account of Sodom, where God's knowledge of teh future is iffy: "If I find x," and also Jer. 18, where God waits to see how a people will respond to a warning and then decides on his course of action.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 224 by dio9]

I view God as a living personality and therefore a synthesis of both consistency and change. So there is an absolute or abstract side or nature to God, which doe not change. This is what God always does: that God is always empathic, always loving, always seeking to maximize beauty, always creative. But there is also a consequent or relative nature to God. This is God as concrete personality, conscious, always changing. God always empathic with any and all creaturely feeling, but as their feelings change, so does God. Likewise, God is always creative. But as past creative options have been actualized, God then changes, moves on to new forms of creativity.

A good example comes from ourselves. For example, I have been a lifelong train buff. Consider that my abstract or absolute nature. But if that is all you say about me, you have left out the concrete me. Now that I have had some years experience actually running a real steam locomotive, I am a very different train buff than I was when I was 20 and had no actual experience with a locomotive. I am sure you can find examples from your own life that illustrate this principle.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 222 by Claire Evans]



[center]
Assuming that God is sane[/center]

I acknowledge these scriptures but how can an omniscient God change His mind?

Yeah, an omniscient being wouldn't have to.
Ever.

But we are assuming that this omniscient being is sane.
And we don't have to assume that.

An omniscient but completely deranged being might.

A deranged being cannot make decisions, cannot guide anyone therefore defying the point of being omniscient.

One changing their mind indicates indecisiveness thinking their previous decisions was better than the one they are making now.

Another reason is denialism.
Maybe this omniscient being doesn't accept certain facts.

He knows them.. but denies them.
And then, maybe for some reason... comes to accept reality.

It's very strange...but who knows the mind of God, right?
He might need some psychotherapy.

That would open up God to deception and that cannot be. That would mean Satan could deceive God. God's work would just implode if He kept changing His mind by suddenly not being in denial. Is is SATAN who is the god of confusion. It's called, "Divide and Conquer".

1 Corinthians 14:33

for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Wisdom comes from consistency.

There are no scriptures in the New Testament as far as I know that indicates God can change His mind.

There are no scriptures in any testament as far as I know that indicates God can't.

That's not good enough because we don't have cases where Jesus changed His mind.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 222 by Claire Evans]

There are around 100 biblical passages that speak of God changing his or her mind, e.g., Gen. 6:6, Hosea 11:8. Malachi 3:5-7 is very interesting here. Some read only the statement "I, the Lord change not" and simply assume the passage is denying change in God. But that is not the case. God persists in certain attitudes, an in this consistency does not vary. But rather than affirming divine immutability, the passage also affirms of divine change. "Return to me, that I might return to you" implies that if we change in a certain direction, God will change in an appropriate way.

I want New Testament scriptures supporting the notion God changes His mind.

"Return to me, that I might return to you" implies that if we change in a certain direction, God will change in an appropriate way.

That does not mean God is changing His mind. If one invites Jesus into their lives, then God will respond. It doesn't mean that He started with the premise that perhaps He won't respond to them because they initially sinned against Him and then decided that everyone needs a chance.


Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

So we see here that God had a plan to harm them but then decided He shouldn't do it. For a God not to change, He knows exactly what He must do, not that may mull on what to do.

Think of it this way. If God does not change, then God cannot utter a single sentence. Consider the changes you go through in uttering a single sentence. Also, assuming God makes a decision means that God moves from indecisiveness to decision, which is a change. That's the way the decision-making process works.

I don't know what you mean by can't utter a single sentence. Does God decide? Any New Testament scriptures to support that?

Omniscience also implies change. I believe all creatures have genuine freedom. WE have to decide for ourselves. God does not decide for us. Hence, ahead of time, God knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibilities, not things set in cement. Ahead of time, the future is open-ended, indeterminate, both for us and also for God. So, any time, we make a decision, God moves from knowing something as mere possibility to knowing it as actual. I think the Bible honors this in its account of Sodom, where God's knowledge of teh future is iffy: "If I find x," and also Jer. 18, where God waits to see how a people will respond to a warning and then decides on his course of action.

So you are saying God doesn't know the future. If the future is not indeterminate, then Revelation is nonsense. No one, not even God, could say what the final outcome would be.

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I think people get confused because they believe time is linear. I believe that the past, future and present happen simultaneously:

http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

In the NT, Jesus is continually changing. He went from childhood to adulthood, for example. He can feel hunger, thirst, then eat, drink, feel satiated. He experiences happy moments and then sad ones. Just going through the basics of living requires continual change. If you consider the crucifixion, then Jesus went from not experiencing that kind of pain to experiencing it. That's a definite change.
And because Jesus underwent these changes, the early anti-Trinitarians argued Christ could not be God, because of their belief that God does not change and therefore cannot experience suffering.

You asked about my sentence example. Well, just in uttering a single sentence, there are all kinds of mental changes you go through, from wanting to utter the sentence, then going to utter it, then the feeling of satisfaction you have from having fulfilled that want. Indeed, just going from word to word demands a change of mind. Now you want this word, not that other one, etc.

The example I gave from Malachi certainly does point to a change in God, and it says if they change, God will return, which implies God has distanced himself and then comes back to them.

The Bible does not say God knows all of the future as certain. In many passages, God's knowledge of future events is iffy, as in the case of Sodom, where God says, in effect, "If I find X." Jeremiah says that God gives warnings, then waits to see how a people will respond, before taking a definite course of action, forgiving or lowering the boom.