Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[Donray]

[Replying to post 221 by onewithhim]

Right. You had no concept of Jesus's resurected body switching between spiritual and physical dimensions until very recently. Did you study your way into that conclusion?

How can you say that I had no concept of Jesus switching between spiritual and physical dimensions until very recently? I have believed that for a long time. I did study my way to that conclusion.

Since you did a study why don't you explain how this is done?

Bet you have no explanation so what did you study?????

Why do you need to lie about studying how a person can go from a physical body to a spiritual? Where is Jesus physical body? Bet you have no idea?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 221 by onewithhim]

Right. You had no concept of Jesus's resurected body switching between spiritual and physical dimensions until very recently. Did you study your way into that conclusion?

How can you say that I had no concept of Jesus switching between spiritual and physical dimensions until very recently? I have believed that for a long time. I did study my way to that conclusion.

Since you did a study why don't you explain how this is done?

Bet you have no explanation so what did you study?????

Why do you need to lie about studying how a person can go from a physical body to a spiritual? Where is Jesus physical body? Bet you have no idea?

NO ONE can explain HOW a spirit person switches from a spirit body to a physical one and back again. It ain't in the Bible.

I studied the idea that it happened at all. I came to the conclusion that it did, seeing that angels in ancient times came to earth and had obviously materialized into physical persons.

I didn't LIE anywhere. I have only presented what conclusions I have come to by way of lengthy study and meditation.

[otseng]

The JW is a very unpleasant cult.

Moderator Comment

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[postroad]

[Replying to post 232 by onewithhim]

So did Jesus ascend in a spiritual or physical body?

[Donray]

I studied the idea that it happened at all. I came to the conclusion that it did, seeing that angels in ancient times came to earth and had obviously materialized into physical persons.

I have only presented what conclusions I have come to by way of lengthy study and meditation.

Answer me this since you studied the subject. Why could the angel just create the illusion of a physical form in the minds of those around? Lots of people in the mental hospitals that see things that no one else sees.

Surly your study would have given you the answer. You most have thought of it as a possibility and dismissed it for a reason.

So, lets hear your response.

[marco]

Why do you need to lie about studying how a person can go from a physical body to a spiritual?

Moderator Comment


You have posed this question in an uncivil fashion. There are many ways you could make your point without accusing people of lying, so perhaps consider one of them should you need to enquire along these lines in future posts.

Please review the Rules.





______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Donray]

I studied the idea that it happened at all. I came to the conclusion that it did, seeing that angels in ancient times came to earth and had obviously materialized into physical persons.

I have only presented what conclusions I have come to by way of lengthy study and meditation.

Answer me this since you studied the subject. Why could the angel just create the illusion of a physical form in the minds of those around? Lots of people in the mental hospitals that see things that no one else sees.

Surly your study would have given you the answer. You most have thought of it as a possibility and dismissed it for a reason.

So, lets hear your response.

Also, since you did a study on the subject could you provide a list of the books and articles that you used that have support for both for and against?

[tam]

May you all have peace!

Peace to you!

Revelation 5:9,10 does not refer to the great crowd of chapter 7.

Revelation 5:9, 10 refers to those people who Christ purchased with His blood, from every nation, tribe, tongue and people. These ones will rule with Him as kings and priests in His Kingdom.


This is including, but not limited to the 144 000, who are taken from 12 tribes of Israel. This is including all who will have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb (which blood He purchased them WITH), all who are before the throne of God and rendering sacred service (a priestly duty) in His temple, day and night. Such as the great crowd that comes out of the great tribulation will do. But this includes ANY and ALL who belong to Christ, whom He purchased with His blood: those who are alive when He returns as well as those who have died before He returns. We who are alive when Christ returns will be caught up together with those have died, and changed in a twinkling (as Paul describes this).

The ones mentioned in Revelation 5:9,10 are those same 144,000. They are the ones who will rule with Christ. The great crowd does not rule with Christ in heaven. Only the 144,000 will be kings and priests.

There is nothing that states that only the 144 000 will be kings and priests with Christ. The great crowd is before the throne of God and serving Him day and night in His temple.

To the Lamb: "'You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.'"

Yes!

But there is nothing to state that this is limited to the 12 tribes of the 144 000. Indeed, the text reads that those who rule with Christ have been purchased from every tribe and nation and tongue and people. Not just the twelve tribes of the 144 000.

So, really, those kings and priests that will rule with Christ, the 144,000, are actually taken from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, not just the tribes of Israel.

Do you see what you have done here?

The text states that the 144 000 are taken from 12 tribes (of Israel). The text states that those who rule with Christ (as per rev 5) are purchased from every tribe and nation and tongue and people.


But here you (well, the wts, I assume) are stating something exactly OPPOSITE of what the text states: that the 144 000 are actually taken from every tribe and nation and tongue and people... and not from 12 tribes, as is written.




May you, and any, who wish them be given ears to hear; and may all who seek and all who thirst, hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."



Peace to you one, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

For what possible reason would there need to be more than a few thousand co-rulers with Christ? 144,000 are quite enough to service the earth while physical people are working to bring it back to perfection. The "great crowd" is all those people who will be working on earth and being GUIDED BY Christ and his co-rulers.

Dear One,

Just because you cannot think of a reason why Christ would share His kingdom with more than a few thousand people, does not mean that there is no reason.





And what makes you think that it is out of NEED that He shares His Kingdom, rather than out of LOVE for His Bride?



He does not need us; WE need HIM.


**


So I will repeat:


1 - the text STATES that the 144 000 are taken equally from twelve tribes of Israel

2 - the text STATES that those who reign with Christ, He has purchased with His blood from EVERY tribe, nation, tongue and people.

(even you have to make the text say something else - that the 144 000 aren't actually from 12 tribes, but from every tribe.)


3 (and most important) - Christ said to eat and to drink of Him. We do this in obedience to HIM, because we love and follow HIM. Not because I say so, but because He said that the one who loves Him is the one who keeps His commands. Our eyes are supposed to be upon Him; and we are supposed to be obeying HIM. In all things.


And on this particular subject, He said (to all),

"Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.…"


As He shared the bread and wine representing His body and blood, He said to His apostles to keep doing this (eating and drinking) in remembrance of Him.



Then He said to His apostles, as He was being taken up,

"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey EVERYTHING that I have commanded YOU."


Since they were to teach all disciples to obey all that He commanded them (and that too was a command), then where is there even room for an interruption in this command?



How can the WTS doctrine of the 144 000 be truth, if it teaches people to disobey the One who IS the Truth (Christ)?

"Lord to WHOM would we go away to? YOU have the words of eternal life."







May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, and may anyone who wishes and who seeks, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

I studied the idea that it happened at all. I came to the conclusion that it did, seeing that angels in ancient times came to earth and had obviously materialized into physical persons.

I have only presented what conclusions I have come to by way of lengthy study and meditation.

Answer me this since you studied the subject. Why could the angel just create the illusion of a physical form in the minds of those around? Lots of people in the mental hospitals that see things that no one else sees.

Surly your study would have given you the answer. You most have thought of it as a possibility and dismissed it for a reason.

So, lets hear your response.

Also, since you did a study on the subject could you provide a list of the books and articles that you used that have support for both for and against?

Didn't I say that I don't know how angels materialize bodies? Nobody does. We can just tell from the Scriptures that they did.

I provided Scriptural passages to show that angels DID materialize. (Genesis 18:1-5) Angels representing Jehovah appeared to Abraham and had their feet washed and ate a meal. Also Genesis 19:1-3. It is obviously ANGELS that visited Abraham and Lot, and yet they appeared as physical humans. It is accepted universally, among reasonable men, that angels are from the SPIRIT REALM, and in that realm they have spirit bodies, just as God does (John 4:24; I Corinth. 15:40,50). When they appeared to Abraham and Lot, they had physical bodies, which is obvious because they ate physical food.

What further evidence do we need to show that angels materialized physical bodies?

[onewithhim]

May you all have peace!

Peace to you!

Revelation 5:9,10 does not refer to the great crowd of chapter 7.

Revelation 5:9, 10 refers to those people who Christ purchased with His blood, from every nation, tribe, tongue and people. These ones will rule with Him as kings and priests in His Kingdom.


This is including, but not limited to the 144 000, who are taken from 12 tribes of Israel. This is including all who will have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb (which blood He purchased them WITH), all who are before the throne of God and rendering sacred service (a priestly duty) in His temple, day and night. Such as the great crowd that comes out of the great tribulation will do. But this includes ANY and ALL who belong to Christ, whom He purchased with His blood: those who are alive when He returns as well as those who have died before He returns. We who are alive when Christ returns will be caught up together with those have died, and changed in a twinkling (as Paul describes this).

The ones mentioned in Revelation 5:9,10 are those same 144,000. They are the ones who will rule with Christ. The great crowd does not rule with Christ in heaven. Only the 144,000 will be kings and priests.

There is nothing that states that only the 144 000 will be kings and priests with Christ. The great crowd is before the throne of God and serving Him day and night in His temple.

To the Lamb: "'You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.'"

Yes!

But there is nothing to state that this is limited to the 12 tribes of the 144 000. Indeed, the text reads that those who rule with Christ have been purchased from every tribe and nation and tongue and people. Not just the twelve tribes of the 144 000.

So, really, those kings and priests that will rule with Christ, the 144,000, are actually taken from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, not just the tribes of Israel.

Do you see what you have done here?

The text states that the 144 000 are taken from 12 tribes (of Israel). The text states that those who rule with Christ (as per rev 5) are purchased from every tribe and nation and tongue and people.


But here you (well, the wts, I assume) are stating something exactly OPPOSITE of what the text states: that the 144 000 are actually taken from every tribe and nation and tongue and people... and not from 12 tribes, as is written.




May you, and any, who wish them be given ears to hear; and may all who seek and all who thirst, hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."



Peace to you one, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

For what possible reason would there need to be more than a few thousand co-rulers with Christ? 144,000 are quite enough to service the earth while physical people are working to bring it back to perfection. The "great crowd" is all those people who will be working on earth and being GUIDED BY Christ and his co-rulers.

Dear One,

Just because you cannot think of a reason why Christ would share His kingdom with more than a few thousand people, does not mean that there is no reason.





And what makes you think that it is out of NEED that He shares His Kingdom, rather than out of LOVE for His Bride?



He does not need us; WE need HIM.


**


So I will repeat:


1 - the text STATES that the 144 000 are taken equally from twelve tribes of Israel

2 - the text STATES that those who reign with Christ, He has purchased with His blood from EVERY tribe, nation, tongue and people.

(even you have to make the text say something else - that the 144 000 aren't actually from 12 tribes, but from every tribe.)


3 (and most important) - Christ said to eat and to drink of Him. We do this in obedience to HIM, because we love and follow HIM. Not because I say so, but because He said that the one who loves Him is the one who keeps His commands. Our eyes are supposed to be upon Him; and we are supposed to be obeying HIM. In all things.


And on this particular subject, He said (to all),

"Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.…"


As He shared the bread and wine representing His body and blood, He said to His apostles to keep doing this (eating and drinking) in remembrance of Him.



Then He said to His apostles, as He was being taken up,

"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey EVERYTHING that I have commanded YOU."


Since they were to teach all disciples to obey all that He commanded them (and that too was a command), then where is there even room for an interruption in this command?



How can the WTS doctrine of the 144 000 be truth, if it teaches people to disobey the One who IS the Truth (Christ)?

"Lord to WHOM would we go away to? YOU have the words of eternal life."







May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, and may anyone who wishes and who seeks, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Jesus has REASONS to do what he does. Why are humans going to heaven AT ALL? We were made to LIVE HERE ON EARTH. Humans have been selected to go to heaven to RULE. That is clear from the Scriptures. The earth doesn't need billions of rulers. You have it backward, as I'm seeing it. You have EVERYBODY who believes in Christ IN HEAVEN. That does not agree with God's original purpose for the earth, which He has not abandoned.

There are relatively few rulers, who will guide and inform us from heaven so that we can bring the planet back to paradise conditions.

The text says BOTH....that the 144,000 are from the "12 tribes" AND from every nation. Therefore the idea that the literal 12 tribes is not meant here has credence. "Israel" has become SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, from all nations.