Paradise on Earth

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:25 am

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:03 pm

postroad wrote: [Replying to post 228 by onewithhim]
What exactly would be the point? Christians reserve the right to interpret text literally when it pleases them and spiritualy when that seems prudent. That's a slippery fish I can not seem to catch. Worst of all they have no concensus on which texts are literal and which ones are not.

I asked you to tell me how you read I John 2:15-17. In your eyes of understanding, what is "the world" that John is referring to?

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postroad · Post by **postroad** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:34 pm

[Replying to post 231 by onewithhim]

1 John 2:15-20New International Version (NIV)

On Not Loving the World

15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[a] is not in them. 16 For everything in the world"the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life"comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Warnings Against Denying the Son

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

. The author is indicating that the present state of creation is not the work of God but finds its founding elsewhere outside of God. This state will not be allowed to continue much longer because this force will soon be destroyed as God can simply not allow the blasphemy of the gospel being perverted from within to continue. The readers have experienced a genuine baptism of Spirit that will protect them from error and continued sinning. Only in this perfection will they saved from the coming wrath that will purge all evil.

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:29 pm

onewithhim wrote:
William wrote:
William wrote:

The Earth is too small to enjoy forever.

No. If all the people who ever lived were brought back, we all would have at least an acre to ourselves. Not all will be resurrected, esp. those who fight God & Jesus right to the end. There will be room. If more people are born, God will either stop reproduction OR there might be options far out in the universe in other solar systems. We'll wait and see.

I don't think you appreciate the idea of existing forever on one planet or even in one universe and you have this belief that your idea of god will be able to grant you whatever you want. Like some fairy god-mother.

All in all the JW theory of future events/interpretation of biblical prophesy has too many holes in it. Personally I think the whole thing stems from politically motivated agenda and that idea of god has evolved along with this. Even from reading the posts pro 'eternity on earth' it seems to me that this god is the malleable subject - the clay shaped to fit the beliefs of the predominant group (JW) posting in this thread. God made in the image of human beings.

It all hinges on the belief that the bible is truth and all that is required is for the individual to believe that is the case, but I think it much more likely the whole thing was politically motivated and there is actually no savior going to come and fix the world. That is just the story told in order to pacify the ruled so that they would rely on an outside force to come and do something human beings are more than capable of demanding of themselves and those leaders.

Also, as much as it is tempting to believe in such promises, when I think it through I realize that being stuck on the same planet forever is more a curse than a blessing, no matter that everything might be peachy...for me - I would rather have the freedom to go wherever I wanted to, and worship no idea of a god...I think that anything which requires worship is most likely vainglorious and that is just one of the many things this god idea has been shaped into over the centuries. A little too human in many regards - evidence that it is more than likely a figment of human vanity - a mythical being shaped - as I said - in the image of human...even the fact that it is a male...but each to their own.

Points taken. I agree that main-line religious thought is and has been politically motivated, for centuries upon centuries. But actually no religion (except JWs) has recently taught very much about a Savior coming to save mankind and set everything right .
There are plenty of other denominations branching from Christendom, which have similar belief systems as JWs in regards to this.

Religion is all about being buddies with the political entities, arm-in-arm to subjugate the people. A real cool set-up for them. The idea of Christ coming is anathema to political entities. In fact, the book of Revelation shows the political leaders en mass resisting Jesus Christ when he comes back to rid the earth of evil. (Revelation 19:11-21)
My point though was that the whole story may have been a political invention. Something to provide hope eternal within those they rule over, century after century.

As a method of control, it is diabolically clever, don't you think? I mean, obviously you don't believe that to be the case, but you don't know for sure do you? That is precisely why you are required to have faith in the concept.

JWs are not exempt from being an aspect (branch off ) of Christendom.

Do you concede that the Bible actually does speak of the earth becoming a Paradise?
I have nothing to 'concede' in that. The bible clearly sates that. My argument is that the bible may be more the invention of the politically motivated than anything 'inspired' by any god.

Most people don't see that in the Bible, strangely enough. They just go by what their religious leaders (who are buddies with politicians) tell them.
Well I am obviously coming from a completely new angle on this then.

The political entities want people to rely on THEM and not an outside Christ.
If an 'outside Christ, eventually coming to save the people from the nasty controllers' is the invention of these political controllers, then they wouldn't care less what the people believed other than if those beliefs make it easier to control the people.

Obviously, this particular belief does indeed make it easier.

My take on it is to remain open to the possibilities and assume nothing I am told re this is truthful or intended for my well-being (or anyone else's) and even if it turned out I was wrong on this, I don't see how my being careful about it rather than putting my faith in it, would in itself, exclude me from it, should it happen that way...

You say you don't like the idea of being stuck on this planet forever and you don't want to pander to any god.
That is correct.

Then, what is your belief about what will happen?
If Jesus does not return as people believe that he will? Then the future is not too bright for most of us unless we can figure out how to make it so ourselves, together.

What will there be for you from now on and forever?
If it be the case and I continue on after death, I would not like to be stuck in any particular form or universe for an eternity.
I would prefer to move around freely between universes, have access to all data and from that learn more.

One last thought. Jehovah insists on exclusive devotion because he knows that that is the most beneficial position that humans can take for themselves. What other god would be good for them to follow? Jehovah is the only true God. If men go off following some other god that they made up for themselves, they will not fare well. Jehovah knows exactly how to make humans happy, and he will make sure that we ARE happy.
Well I think that Jehovah is an aspect of a far larger reality consciousness and I am not beholding to any aspect of that consciousness to determine for me what will make me happy in relation to devotion.
The notion that some folk have about worshiping a god-idea - some being on a throne to which all attention is focused upon? No thanks. That is not something which implies happiness.

It implies status quo stagnation and the inability to grow and expand.

It is a very limited self defeating way of thinking one would like to be occupied with for an eternity.

But perhaps you don't see 'worship' in that way? Perhaps your idea of being devoted to Jehovah has nothing to do with some effigy on a throne demanding you be happy forever prostrated in front of?

Forever is a long time. Be creative.

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:28 pm

onewithhim wrote:
William wrote:
Blastcat wrote:
dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 184 by Blastcat]

I don't view Genesis to be a science textbook.
so is Genesis true at all?

Have you ever looked into Judaism to get opinions from that sector in relation to how they view those stories?

I can say that I have and some feel that Christianity hijacked their culture and misrepresented/misinterpreted them and used their idea of god to create another one.

I have spoken with Jews and studied their Bible.

Okay.

I am perplexed that they have sabotaged their own religion with beliefs that are really not in their own Scriptures, such as their present belief in hell-fire and the immortality of the soul. I do not see either of those concepts in the Hebrew Scriptures (nor in the New Testament, for that matter). There is no mention of a burning hell, or, "Sheol," which is the equivalent of "hell" or "Hades" in the N.T. Regarding the soul, any Rabbi worth his salt is going to know that animals are also "souls", the soul can DIE (thus it is not immortal), and after death a person knows nothing.
Specifically I was talking about the story of Genesis in relation to 'what Judaism' might have to say about that.

[/i]

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:32 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
William wrote:It all hinges on the belief that the bible is truth and all that is required is for the individual to believe that is the case, but I think it much more likely the whole thing was politically motivated and there is actually no savior going to come and fix the world.

We you are entitled to your beliefs...

It is more about being truthful in regards to history and politics and the bible. I have no particular beliefs on the matter.

...but Genesis does speak of a "seed" or an offspring that would "crush" Satan (the serpent). Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the Prophets, King David and others in scripture, reflected a hope in this coming one... by means of whom people all over the earth would be blessed.
Well, you certainly are entitled to your beliefs...

Jehovah's Witnesses are not superimposing the idea of a Savior or of a coming paradise, its an integral part of the bible.
Or...they might be just spreading a false hope in a future which might never happen.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:26 pm

postroad wrote: [Replying to post 231 by onewithhim]
1 John 2:15-20New International Version (NIV)

On Not Loving the World

15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[a] is not in them. 16 For everything in the world"the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life"comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Warnings Against Denying the Son

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
. The author is indicating that the present state of creation is not the work of God but finds its founding elsewhere outside of God. This state will not be allowed to continue much longer because this force will soon be destroyed as God can simply not allow the blasphemy of the gospel being perverted from within to continue. The readers have experienced a genuine baptism of Spirit that will protect them from error and continued sinning. Only in this perfection will they saved from the coming wrath that will purge all evil.

OK Postroad, I appreciate your thoughts, but I asked you a specific question, about a specific thing. What is "the world" in that scripture? Is it the planet or something else?

.

postroad · Post by **postroad** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:33 pm

[Replying to post 236 by onewithhim]
It canot be the planet itself despite Paul's claim of a corrupted creation and flesh. I have always understood it from the perspective of a people apart. The world bringing the dominant culture. At the time of the writing Rome dominated the whole civilized "world" to an extent that perhaps has never been seen in any other time in history.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:42 pm

postroad wrote: [Replying to post 236 by onewithhim]
It canot be the planet itself despite Paul's claim of a corrupted creation and flesh. I have always understood it from the perspective of a people apart. The world bringing the dominant culture. At the time of the writing Rome dominated the whole civilized "world" to an extent that perhaps has never been seen in any other time in history.

So "the world" is people, and people in alienation from God, correct?

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postroad · Post by **postroad** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:19 am

[Replying to post 238 by onewithhim. In the context of the story the world is people and cultures belonging to Satan. In the context of the story all of the elect existed as wheat among the tares. The story must be understood from the perspective of an almost immediate day of reckoning which would destroy all traces of evil from the earth. There was no reckonciling the reprobate to God at this point. Only instructions for the elect to seperate and purify themselves from the world. The time had come to choose between God and Satan.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:42 pm

postroad wrote: [Replying to post 238 by onewithhim. In the context of the story the world is people and cultures belonging to Satan. In the context of the story all of the elect existed as wheat among the tares. The story must be understood from the perspective of an almost immediate day of reckoning which would destroy all traces of evil from the earth. There was no reckonciling the reprobate to God at this point. Only instructions for the elect to seperate and purify themselves from the world. The time had come to choose between God and Satan.

OK, thank you. You have, in my estimation, discerned correctly that "the world" means people...esp. people in alienation from God.

Therefore, I point back to the post where you referred to the belief that God chose people to live or to die "from the founding of the world." My point is that "the world" here mentioned is not the planet but is the entire society alienated from God. Can you see my point? God did not choose people to live or die before He created the planet. That is bogus.

When was the "founding of the world"? The founding of the society of people alienated from God was when Adam & Eve had children, the first being Cain. This is when "the world" was founded.

God planned for a special group of people to eventually rule with Christ in heaven, between the time that Adam sinned and the time Cain was born. (1) That is what is meant by Ephesians 1:4....."Just as He chose us in him before the foundation of the world." (NASB) (2) It doesn't say that each individual was picked to rule with Christ. It indicates merely that a special GROUP was planned. God didn't discern the individual members of the group yet. This fact is important to know. The teaching of God choosing people to live or die before they were even born is horsefeathers.

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