This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[polonius]

He clarifies that meaning in Matthew 23 in much detail, and gives further description elsewhere.

RESPONSE: Jesus is not speaking of his second coming in Matthew 23

"The persecution of Jesus disciples by this generation involves the persecutors in the guilt of their murderous ancestors." See footnote to what Jesus says in the New American Bible

Yes, it is "amazing what some try to argue to avoid the obvious plain meaning" Jesus so clearly conveyed. So true. We have the clear expression "this generation" regarding Jesus second coming in two gospels, we have Jesus' claim that his disciples will not have preached to all the towns in Israel before his second coming, we have Jesus' claim to the high Priest that the priest will see Jesus' return.

But Jesus was in error in all four cases.

[Elijah John]

Peace to you EJ,

[Replying to post 253 by Elijah John]

And Jesus too, who was a man of his times.

How do you make this kind of statement as if it was fact, as if you know this?

I do not understand that.


You're not the only person who does this; I am not meaning to single you out. I just don't understand this.


How do you know what you are saying is true?




Peace again to you.

Because Jesus was under the erroneous impression that the end was nigh. Just like his contemporaries Paul, the unknown author of Hebrews, the author of Revelation, etc, etc, who all had the expectation that the Apocalpse was immanent.

And Checkpoint THAT is context. Historical and cultural context.

Also, as many here on this site have ovserved, Jesus knowledge was seemingly limited. He shared no knowledge that Almighty God would have been privy to, such as how to advance scientific and technical knowledge, medicine, travel, engineering etc. Instead, Jesus traveled on foot, and healed by non-scientific means we call "miracles", communicated by word of mouth, and preaching to live audiences. Etc. Prometheus, according to Greek mythology, gave us fire. Jesus gave us no such thing to advance human technology.

As Judas in JC Superstar speaking in the present tense inquired, "Why'd you choose a backward time in such a stange land" and again "if you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation, Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication".

Like I said, Jesus was a man of his time. Isn't that obvious? Isn't it obvious that Jesus knowledge was limited? Limited to the norms of his times?

Or if Jesus was merely conforming to the norms of his time so that he would be understood, I guess that's a possibility. Tailoring his message to his audience. At the very least, even if Jesus was "God incarnate" he certainly seemed to have been pretendingto be a man of his times.

But what is more likely, that Jesus was actually a man of his times? Or merely pretending to be.

[Elijah John]

He clarifies that meaning in Matthew 23 in much detail, and gives further description elsewhere.

RESPONSE: Jesus is not speaking of his second coming in Matthew 23

"The persecution of Jesus disciples by this generation involves the persecutors in the guilt of their murderous ancestors." See footnote to what Jesus says in the New American Bible

Yes, it is "amazing what some try to argue to avoid the obvious plain meaning" Jesus so clearly conveyed. So true. We have the clear expression "this generation" regarding Jesus second coming in two gospels, we have Jesus' claim that his disciples will not have preached to all the towns in Israel before his second coming, we have Jesus' claim to the high Priest that the priest will see Jesus' return.

But Jesus was in error in all four cases.

Not only all the towns in Israel, Jesus present day disciples have pretty much preached to the whole world, and still he has not returned.

Unless, or course, the WTS of JWs are to believed and he returned in 1914, invisibly.

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 254 by tam]

How do you make this kind of statement as if it was fact, as if you know this?

In my experience you do this sort of thing all the time.

And you are more than welcome to ask me that same question.

How do you know what you are saying is true?

Perhaps it is the same way that you know what you are saying is true.

But it is not.

Hence I am asking the question.

[tam]

Peace to you EJ,

Peace to you EJ,

[Replying to post 253 by Elijah John]

And Jesus too, who was a man of his times.

How do you make this kind of statement as if it was fact, as if you know this?

I do not understand that.


You're not the only person who does this; I am not meaning to single you out. I just don't understand this.


How do you know what you are saying is true?




Peace again to you.

Because Jesus was under the erroneous notion that the end was nigh. Just like his contemporaries Paul, the unknown author of Hebrews, the author of Revelation, etc, etc, who all had the expectation that the Apocalpse was immanent.

No, this is you simply repeating your statement. I asked HOW you make those statements as if they are fact? How do you know what notion "Jesus" was under?


**

And as for those notions, here are some of His words:


No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


He even warned His apostles that it was not for them to know:


"It is not for you to know the times or seasons the Father has set by his own authority.

Also, as many here on this site have ovserved, Jesus shared no knowledge that Almighty God would have been privy to, such as how to advance scientific and technical knowledge, medicine, travel, engineering etc.

My Lord did not come here for those things, EJ.

He came here to bear witness to the truth; to reveal God (in truth); to give His life as a ransom for many; to lead us into all truth; to set people free; etc.

Instead, Jesus traveled on foot,

Yes of course; or by boat; at least once by colt. How else would you be expecting the Messiah to travel around the land?

But after His resurrection, He also moved in and out of closed rooms; appearing and disappearing before His apostles; being taken up toward the sky until a cloud hid Him from their sight.

and healed by non-scientific means we call "miracles",

How does that make him a 'man of that time'? Science and medicine cannot yet even cure all the things that my Lord healed people from. Sounds more advanced than those times and these times.

communicated by word of mouth,

Obviously people spoke about Him. But HE communicated with His OWN mouth; and after He died and was resurrected, He continued to speak and teach as the Spirit and with words, visions, dreams, etc, and via holy spirit. So despite the comment from the actor/writer in "Judas in JC Superstar", Christ Jaheshua could speak with anyone, anywhere in the world, long LONG before the invention of the internet or telephone.

and preaching to live audiences. Etc.

The alternative is what? Preaching to dead audiences? He actually did that too, when He descended to Sheol (world of the dead).

As Judas in JC Superstar speaking in the present tense inquired, "Why'd you choose a backward time in such a stange land"

This seems like a very modern and self-centered observation from "Judas in JC Superstar". In another thousand years our time would be considered a 'backward time'; and if the person stating it is from another part of the world (or solar system), then this part of the world (or this planet) might also be considered a strange land. Simply because it is not the land that person making the comment is from.

Like I said, Jesus was a man of his time. Isn't that obvious?

No, not at all.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 261 by tam]

Tammy, do you think Jesus knew there would be such things as trains, planes, and automobiles that would make travel by donkey obsolete?

And if so, what is your evidence? And if so, isn't that just an assumption based on faith and not evidence or reason?

Even IF Jesus is God, or the supernatural, "only begotten Son of God" didn't he have limitations to his knowledge while his expansive mind was incarnate into a human head?

Even the NT says that he "grew in wisdom and knowledge and favor in the eyes of God and man." (Or words to that effect).

How could he "grow" if he already knew it all?

And if Jesus had limitations to his knowledge while on earth, and that knowledge was limited to his first century Palestinian culture, then indeed he was a man of his times.

And finally, did Jesus "know it all" from the manger?

[tam]

Peace to you EJ,

[Replying to post 261 by tam]

Tammy, do you think Jesus knew there would be such things as trains, planes, and automobiles that would make travel by donkey obsolete?

Not "Jesus", but yes, I do think this.

(I mean, even regular men can envision more advanced modes of travel.)

And if so, what is your evidence? And if so, isn't that just an assumption based on faith and not evidence or reason?

He knew Judas was going to betray Him. He knew He was going to be put to death. He knew the night He was going to be arrested. He knew that His apostles would all desert Him. He knew Peter would deny Him. He knew false christs and false prophets would come. He knew the temple would be torn down. Why would He not know about something as trivial as different modes of transportation coming in the future?

(I know that He knew these things from at least the time that He gave John the revelation; because there are things from the future in that, even if John could only describe those things using first century words.)


But I did not ask you about how you come to assume the things you think to be true. I asked you how you could make statements of fact as if you KNOW them to be true?

Even IF Jesus is God, or the supernatural, "only begotten Son of God" didn't he have limitations to his knowledge while his expansive mind was incarnate into a human head?

I do not see how the size of his head would make a difference; but I think He was clear that there are some things that even He did not know, that only the Father knew - such as 'that day and hour'; the time that He would return.

Even the NT says that he "grew in wisdom and knowledge and favor in the eyes of God and man." (Or words to that effect).

How could he "grow" if he already knew it all?

And if Jesus had limitations to his knowledge while on earth, and that knowledge was limited to his first century Palestinian culture, then indeed he was a man of his times.

And finally, did Jesus "know it all" from the manger?

Even if He had limitations to his knowledge while on earth (even if just as a babe or very young child), it does not logically follow that those limitations were set to first century Palestinian culture. He learned all He knew from His Father (from God). So unless His Father's knowledge was limited to first century Palestinian culture, why would the Son's knowledge be limited to first century Palestinian culture?





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 263 by tam]

Yes, Jesus, Yahshua, you know who we are speaking of.

And I already answered with several previous posts in this thread, giving evidence for my assertions.

And again, is it more likely that Jesus was actually a man of his times? Or a God-man pretending to be, or disguised as a man of his times.

Either way, he was a man of his times. He walked and rode donkeys like so many other men of their time. He did not ride planes, trains and automobiles.

Is likelihood, reason and probability on the side for your assertions?

Or are your assertions statements of faith?

What is your evidence that Jesus knew about the future invention of the internal combustion engine and related transportation?

Seems to me you are just speculating.

[polonius]

Elijah John posted,
Replying to post 263 by tam]

Yes, Jesus, Yahshua, you know who we are speaking of.

And I already answered with several previous posts in this thread, giving evidence for my assertions.

And again, is it more likely that Jesus was actually a man of his times? Or a God-man pretending to be, or disguised as a man of his times.

RESPONSE:
Actually, it is more likely that Jesus was just a man, a religious leader, one of four first century messiah-candidates executed by the Romans (as were all four) for insurrection. The reason for this is that the messiah? was prophesized to return the rule to Israel (ie. To drive the Romans out).

See Acts, chapter 5 Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be someone important, and about four hundred men joined him, but he was killed, and all those who were loyal to him were disbanded and came to nothing.37 After him came Judas the Galilean at the time of the census. He also drew people after him, but he too perished and all who were loyal to him were scattered. (Next was the Egyptian)

See Acts, chapter 2 You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know. This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him. But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it."

SUMMARY: Jesus is described as a man through whom God, not Jesus, worked signs. Jesus did not rise from the dead ( he was not divine himself) but was a man raised from the dead.

The first Christians remained a sect of very observant Jews. It was only about 85 AD that the story of Jesus as divine himself developed. This, of course was heresy, and the Christians were excluded from the Jewish synagogues as apostates. (See the 12th Benediction on-line and the Gospel of John).

[tam]

Peace to you EJ,

[Replying to post 263 by tam]

Yes, Jesus, Yahshua, you know who we are speaking of.

My Lord is not "Jesus". "Jesus" is more like the Hollywood version that man (and religion) has made, and not the true person.

And I already answered with several previous posts in this thread, giving evidence for my assertions.

I was not inquiring about your assertions. I was inquiring about the statements you make as if they are fact, as if you know them to be true.

Obviously you do not KNOW them to be true; I just do not understand why people state things about Christ and what He thought and felt and believed as if they know them to be true, when they do not know them to be true. That was the whole point of my question.

And again, is it more likely that Jesus was actually a man of his times? Or a God-man pretending to be, or disguised as a man of his times.

"Likelihood" depends upon the evidence one chooses to accept or reject, does it not?


If you know none of the reasons, then how likely is it that God would choose the one man Abraham from His entire creation to make a covenant with?



Truth is also not dependent upon 'likelihood' (or upon what people deem to be more or less likely).

Either way, he was a man of his times. He walked and rode donkeys like so many other men of their time. He did not ride planes, trains and automobiles.

Once again, yes of course he did not ride planes and trains and automobiles. Such things were not invented yet.

(I will reiterate that upon His resurrection, He also appeared and disappeared before His apostles, ascended up into the sky until He entered the spiritual realm, etc. Even before His death, resurrection and ascension, He walked on water. Though technically, I suppose that is still walking.)

Is likelihood, reason and probability on the side for your assertions?

Or are your assertions statements of faith?

I think your definition of a statement of faith, and mine, are different.


My thoughts about Christ knowing about future modes of transportation is based upon reason (based upon other things that He has taught; including His knowing other things in the future). That being said, there may be a possibility that - while a man - perhaps He did not know the specifics of future modes of travel (though many men can reason that more advanced modes of transportation will come in the future). I also think technology is a trivial matter deflecting from the point that He did know the future; about what would happen to Him, and to His apostles and disciples; what was coming on the world; etc.

So He was obviously not limited in His knowledge or in His wisdom to a 'man of that time'.



A statement of faith (from me) would be something I shared that I heard and learned from my Lord, so that I know it to be true. It would not be about what I think; it would simply be what is true and from Him. Whether others hear or refrain.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy