Jehovahs Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovahs Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovahs Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovahs Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 280 by postroad]

I do not frequent apostate sites. I know there are many accusations, too many to count so I don't catalog them.

I will tell you of one that you might see on every apostate site. I do know that many claim they're are not haters of all JWs but only of the WTBTS. That right there is the first problem. The WTBTS is the legal name of our the JW publishing company. The Watchtower Bible Tract Society are not separate from JWs. People also get this confused with the Governing Body as being the WTBTS. That is not correct either. The Governing Body are Jehovah's Witnesses like me. Almost all attacks are on these people. They see them as the leaders. But they are only 'taking the lead' in the way of example set forth by the Bible. Apostates focus on these few brothers of mine because they think if they can show their faults (real or made up faults) then the JW religion will come crumbling down. These people are sadly mistaken. You can throw a dime in a Kingdom Hall or at a GB member and hit a sinner.

So, oh no! What ever will we do?!?! Their are people in my religion where wrong about something!?!?! What I care about is the sanctification of God's name and searching for what is true. I'm not looking for salvation in people's past mistakes or what other say about them. All JWs, even the GB have this goal. Apostates... this is not their goal. They are unforgiving, fault finders and don't care what a person beliefs, just as long as it is not what JWs believe. JWs are also the few religions I have found that has dedicated sites to only them with wild accusations. Did you know there is no 'catholiclies.com' but there is a 'jwlies.com'? Crazy right?

I do not know which talk you're talking about concerning Anthony Morris. That brother of mine has many talks. Perhaps an apostate did such a good job of convincing you they didn't think you'd actually go looking for the video.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 281 by 2timothy316]
I have seen the videos. I just can't find them on JW.org. Anybody can go to YouTube and search Anthony Morris 2015 baptism.

[tam]

I assume this is the one postroad is speaking about. I'm not sure why a video from a jw site would be required. It is anthony morris himself speaking. Its a snapshot of his talk.





Regardless, even without it, from the earlier link to the official site, they are at the least encouraging baptism at a young age (young meaning at least 13, since 13 is the age of the person in their example of someone who got baptized young and received 'many blessings' for doing so).


Anthony Morris in the snapshot above, goes a step further and suggests that there is something wrong with a teenager wanting to get their drivers licence but not yet wanting to get baptized.


But for one, the two things do not equate, and perhaps mr. morris should think about that. One is a simple drivers licence. The other is something that is forever, eternal, regarding God, and just a bit more important than a drivers licence. And if the teenager changes their mind down the road with baptism, then they will be shunned by all of their friends and families. Forever. Unless they change their mind BACK.

If a teenager decides they don't like driving, or even if they lose their drivers license... so what? They take a bus, ride a bike, walk, take a cab?


No comparison.

So on the one hand, some in the religion speak of how important the decision is and that it should not be rushed and could wait upward of twenties and thirties; and on the other hand we have encouragement for young ones to get baptized (and there is no age mentioned for young ones, specifically, but under 18 at least, and certainly 13) in official information, and even some derision from a GB member for a 16 year old who is ready to get their drivers licence, but has not yet decided to get baptized.




Peace to you AND your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 281 by 2timothy316]
I have seen the videos. I just can't find them on JW.org. Anybody can go to YouTube and search Anthony Morris 2015 baptism.

Funny how it's only one minute and 27 seconds of the talk. Like I said, apostate cherrypicking is real.

That being said, I completely agree with what brother Morris said in the snippet shown. If a teen or anyone that understands what the Bible teaches doesn't want to get baptized then it is important to find out why not. Are they ready to dedicate their life to something else? Small children that can't comprehend such things and are not the issue. If a teen is making big decisions such as driving a car but are putting off other big decisions then it is up to the parents to bring this to the teen's attention. What's wrong with making sure a son or daughter is considering dedication to God? Even if a parent blocks them from getting a car for a few years. When the teen is able to do things without their parents legally, don't worry, if they want nothing to do with God keeping a drives license from them is not going to matter. The parents though are under the Law of Love to try to get them to consider what they are doing.

As to why it's not on the website is because Convention talks are rarely put on jw.org. So there was nothing purged because it was never supposed to be posted by the WTBTS on jw.org. There are conventions going on year-round. Not every talk is placed on the website. Brother Morris' talking points would have been given by another elder at another convention. Another thing you are not aware of is that convention talks have an outline. All speakers bring out the points in that outline in different ways but all the same points are noted. Where the apostates got the video? Who knows. There are people becoming apostates all the time. Even in A/V positions. At anyrate, you will notice they don't post the whole thing just the snippets that they want people to see along with their own narrative. That is how apostates work.

[2timothy316]

Anthony Morris in the snapshot above, goes a step further and suggests that there is something wrong with a teenager wanting to get their drivers licence but not yet wanting to get baptized.

That's why only seeing 1 min of the talk and not the rest is important. Perhaps a teen is more focused or bugging his/her parents to get a drivers license. Perhaps that is all they talk about. Perhaps they are not showing any interest in a relationship with God. Perhaps denying their getting a drivers license will make them focus on what is really important. Or maybe not. The point is no matter how a parent does it, they have to make sure their children understand what is important. No one can build a relationship with God for you.

But for one, the two things do not equate, and perhaps mr. morris should think about that. One is a simple drivers licence. The other is something that is forever, eternal, regarding God, and just a bit more important than a drivers licence. And if the teenager changes their mind down the road with baptism, then they will be shunned by all of their friends and families. Forever. Unless they change their mind BACK.

Shunning doesn't happen that way when a child doesn't get baptized. As I am one of those that left JWs as a teen I was not shunned by JWs or parents. Fear of being shunned wasn't even brought up as an option in the snippet.

If a teenager decides they don't like driving, or even if they lose their drivers license... so what? They take a bus, ride a bike, walk, take a cab?


No comparison.

So on the one hand, some in the religion speak of how important the decision is and that it should not be rushed and could wait upward of twenties and thirties; and on the other hand we have encouragement for young ones to get baptized (and there is no age mentioned for young ones, specifically, but under 18 at least, and certainly 13) in official information, and even some derision from a GB member for a 16 year old who is ready to get their drivers licence, but has not yet decided to get baptized.




Peace to you AND your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Again, from what I know of the baptism issue, it's not really about equating a license with that's the time a teen should be considering baptism but that if a teen is focusing on many big decisions but ignoring their decisions concerning God, then as a parent that cares about the future of their child, where is the child's focus? Spiritual things or is it more physical things. I will tell everyone straight up I was focused on physical things. I was...how can I put this nicely...unwise.

[tam]

For some reason the above link isn't linking to the talk anymore, so I'm posting another link here (feel free to ignore the written commentary at the start; I am posting it just to have Morris's words on the subject):

Anthony Morris in the snapshot above, goes a step further and suggests that there is something wrong with a teenager wanting to get their drivers licence but not yet wanting to get baptized.

That's why only seeing 1 min of the talk and not the rest is important. Perhaps a teen is more focused or bugging his/her parents to get a drivers license. Perhaps that is all they talk about. Perhaps they are not showing any interest in a relationship with God. Perhaps denying their getting a drivers license will make them focus on what is really important. Or maybe not. The point is no matter how a parent does it, they have to make sure their children understand what is important. No one can build a relationship with God for you.

In the example that morris gave, Morris has the teen say that they were not ready to get baptized/dedicate their life to "Jehovah". Then morris said that perhaps they shouldn't get their drivers' license for a while; to which he has the teen saying 'what, but I'm ready, I know I am", to which morris states 'ready to get a driver's licence but not ready to dedicate your life. Hmm. Explain that one to heaven."


Coercion: when you're ready to dedicate your life, then you're ready for a driver's licence.

Fear: oh, so you're ready for your driver's licence, but not ready to dedicate your life? Explain that one to heaven.


But people can see for themselves, and draw their own conclusions.

But for one, the two things do not equate, and perhaps mr. morris should think about that. One is a simple drivers licence. The other is something that is forever, eternal, regarding God, and just a bit more important than a drivers licence. And if the teenager changes their mind down the road with baptism, then they will be shunned by all of their friends and families. Forever. Unless they change their mind BACK.

Shunning doesn't happen that way when a child doesn't get baptized. As I am one of those that left JWs as a teen I was not shunned by JWs or parents. Fear of being shunned wasn't even brought up as an option in the snippet.

I wasn't speaking about children who do NOT get baptized. I was speaking about those who DO get baptized. A child who gets baptized at 13, and later changes their mind, will be shunned by their (jw) friends and family.


The point is that it is a HUGE decision - much larger than merely getting a drivers licence. And perhaps holding out a driver's licence as a carrot (and withholding it as a stick) for such a decision is wrong. Perhaps that is also not the best way to get a child to focus on spiritual matters over physical matters, by holding out a 'physical' matter as the carrot or stick.






Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[postroad]

[Replying to post 284 by 2timothy316] It speaks for itself. Regardless this problem could be solved if JW.org would have thee things available online. It's not like it's from the 1950s.

[2timothy316]

For some reason the above link isn't linking to the talk anymore, so I'm posting another link here (feel free to ignore the written commentary at the start; I am posting it just to have Morris's words on the subject):

Anthony Morris in the snapshot above, goes a step further and suggests that there is something wrong with a teenager wanting to get their drivers licence but not yet wanting to get baptized.

That's why only seeing 1 min of the talk and not the rest is important. Perhaps a teen is more focused or bugging his/her parents to get a drivers license. Perhaps that is all they talk about. Perhaps they are not showing any interest in a relationship with God. Perhaps denying their getting a drivers license will make them focus on what is really important. Or maybe not. The point is no matter how a parent does it, they have to make sure their children understand what is important. No one can build a relationship with God for you.

In the example that morris gave, Morris has the teen say that they were not ready to get baptized/dedicate their life to "Jehovah". Then morris said that perhaps they shouldn't get their drivers' license for a while; to which he has the teen saying 'what, but I'm ready, I know I am", to which morris states 'ready to get a driver's licence but not ready to dedicate your life. Hmm. Explain that one to heaven."


Coercion: when you're ready to dedicate your life, then you're ready for a driver's licence.

Fear: oh, so you're ready for your driver's licence, but not ready to dedicate your life? Explain that one to heaven.


But people can see for themselves, and draw their own conclusions.

That's the point. 1:00 of the talk is not enough to draw a conclusion. That is what apostates want people to do. Build their opinion of JWs based what they present. I have background on what he is talking about. He is still correct, one should have a respect for God. He is being blunt and some parents are that blunt because it's a last ditch effort. Mine were. Yet, I was a difficult person to deal with. I wish I would have listened when the they tried to teach by love too. We will all being explaining things to Heaven one day.

But for one, the two things do not equate, and perhaps mr. morris should think about that. One is a simple drivers licence. The other is something that is forever, eternal, regarding God, and just a bit more important than a drivers licence. And if the teenager changes their mind down the road with baptism, then they will be shunned by all of their friends and families. Forever. Unless they change their mind BACK.

Shunning doesn't happen that way when a child doesn't get baptized. As I am one of those that left JWs as a teen I was not shunned by JWs or parents. Fear of being shunned wasn't even brought up as an option in the snippet.

I wasn't speaking about children who do NOT get baptized. I was speaking about those who DO get baptized. A child who gets baptized at 13, and later changes their mind, will be shunned by their (jw) friends and family.


The point is that it is a HUGE decision - much larger than merely getting a drivers licence - and perhaps holding out a driver's licence as a carrot (and withholding it as a stick) for such a HUGE decision is wrong.

I find it to be demeaning, actually, but to each their own.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Again, you heard one minute of a talk and even the whole talk wouldn't be the whole story. Also, most don't understand that there are other Bible teachings to consider.

There are articles such as this one that younger ones should consider. I wish I would have when I was young. But as I said, I was not as wise then. The article even says "nor should you get baptized in response to pressure from others. You should get baptized when you are fully aware of what being one of Jehovahs Witnesses involves and when you are sure that you are ready and willing to take on this responsibility."Eccl. 5:4, 5." If a parent said something like Brother Morris said and the child says back to the parent, 'I'm not ready to it yet, you're pressuring me!' then without fail the parents should back off. Could Brother Morris have said this later in his talk? We don't know do we.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010843

[postroad]

[Replying to post 288 by 2timothy316]
Let's have it then. Why is this speech not available on JW.org?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 288 by 2timothy316]
Let's have it then. Why is this speech not available on JW.org?

I already told you in my last post. Not every talk is on jw.org. There are 100s of talks a day. Not every one is going to be online. Nor do they need to be. Every talk has an outline and everyone sticks to the online. They all cover the same points in their own way.