This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[polonius]

The bottom line is that Jesus, despite his promised, simply hasn't returned.

Unless you want to accept the claims of the JW's that he has returned and in spite of the claim that all men would see him, none of us has!

[Checkpoint]

The bottom line is that Jesus, despite his promised, simply hasn't returned.

Unless you want to accept the claims of the JW's that he has returned and in spite of the claim that all men would see him, none of us has!

The bottom line is that he has not yet returned, which means "this generation" is still amongst us as all things have not been fulfilled.

[Elijah John]

The bottom line is that Jesus, despite his promised, simply hasn't returned.

Unless you want to accept the claims of the JW's that he has returned and in spite of the claim that all men would see him, none of us has!

The bottom line is that he has not yet returned, which means "this generation" is still amongst us as all things have not been fulfilled.

How far, in terms of time, can a single term ike "this generation" stand being stretched? If it goes on much longer, won't it stretch to the breaking point? (Or has the poor little word already already snapped like a rubber band, under the tension of the aplogists who stretch it.)

[tam]

Peace to you,

The bottom line is that Jesus, despite his promised, simply hasn't returned.

Unless you want to accept the claims of the JW's that he has returned and in spite of the claim that all men would see him, none of us has!

The bottom line is that he has not yet returned, which means "this generation" is still amongst us as all things have not been fulfilled.

How far, in terms of time, can a single term ike "this generation" stand being stretched? If it goes on much longer, won't it stretch to the breaking point? (Or has the poor little word already already snapped like a rubber band, under the tension of the aplogists who stretch it.)

"This generation" is not being used in terms of time. "This generation" is being used in terms of KIND.



Peace again!

[marco]

"This generation" is not being used in terms of time. "This generation" is being used in terms of KIND.

This is sophistry. The expectation in the hearts of Christ's hearers would be an announcement of what might happen soon. Some will not taste death .... is an indication of time span. "I go to prepare a place" does not suggest it will take at least two thousand years.

When we are forced to accept an utterly obscure interpretation we must first consider whether those listening would have taken this meaning and whether the speaker intended such obscurity. The statement was not meant for the ears of the shrewdest theologians and philosophers. It seems very plain that Jesus himself felt he'd be back soon. Since he admitted he had no knowledge of the denouement, it is inconceivable he was extending generation into thousands of years, and commenting as if he possessed that knowledge.

[tam]

Peace to you marco,

"This generation" is not being used in terms of time. "This generation" is being used in terms of KIND.

This is sophistry. The expectation in the hearts of Christ's hearers would be an announcement of what might happen soon.

How is this sophistry, Marco?

: subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophistry

a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/sophistry

the clever use of arguments that seem true but are really false, in order to deceive people

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... /sophistry

a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
a false argument; sophism.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sophistry


I had to go down the google page to find a definition that did not specifically mention intent to deceive. I have zero desire or intention to deceive you or anyone. There is absolutely NO point in me doing something like that.


Other than that, the suggestion is that the argument is invalid. How so? There are a number of explanations in this thread showing the meaning of the word 'genea', and those include 'kind' over 'time'. Christ used 'generation' in that way on more than just this occasion.


Truth is also not dependent upon what may or may not be the expectations of one's hearers.

Some will not taste death .... is an indication of time span.

This is a different verse.

Still,

Some will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom... is not necessarily the same sentence as.... some will not taste death before the Son of Man comes in His Kingdom.

John did LITERALLY see this (in the Revelation given him); John was taken in the spirit to the Lord's day, and he saw my Lord's literal return.

We might also look at the parallel passage in Mark:

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

Multiple people standing there did see this power at the outpouring of holy spirit (the power that Christ told His apostles they would receive from on high, Acts 1:8), at Pentecost.

So I have wondered of late if my Lord meant that (or at least if my Lord also meant that).

"I go to prepare a place" does not suggest it will take at least two thousand years.

I go to prepare place does not suggest a specific time span at all.

When we are forced to accept an utterly obscure interpretation we must first consider whether those listening would have taken this meaning and whether the speaker intended such obscurity.

As stated, this is not the first time Christ used 'generation' as kind rather than time. Even so, many disciples did not understand what He meant when He told them that He is the true manna from heaven, and that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood, for his flesh is real food and his blood is real drink. He did not use the 'plain and obvious meaning' (plain or obvious to the people listening). Yet He still said it.

The statement was not meant for the ears of the shrewdest theologians and philosophers.

I am neither a theologian or a philosopher, shrewd or otherwise.

It seems very plain that Jesus himself felt he'd be back soon. Since he admitted he had no knowledge of the denouement, it is inconceivable he was extending generation into thousands of years, and commenting as if he possessed that knowledge.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your words here, Marco, but if He stated outright that He did not know that day or hour (at that time at least), then it does not make sense to me, to suggest that He might also have commented as though He did know that day or hour.


He even emphasized to His apostles that it was NOT for them to know the times or seasons that the Father has set. Any expectation or guessing from them (or from us) is really on us; not on Christ or God.

It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Acts 1:7-8



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

When we are forced to accept an utterly obscure interpretation we must first consider whether those listening would have taken this meaning and whether the speaker intended such obscurity. The statement was not meant for the ears of the shrewdest theologians and philosophers. .

Nor was it intended for those reading many, many generations in the future, leapfrogging his contemporary audience. The statement may have been intended for our present readership, but if Jesus did not intend it for his listening audience as well, and was bypassing his listeners and instead playing to some distant readership, he was grandstanding.

[Elijah John]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your words here, Marco, but if He stated outright that He did not know that day or hour (at that time at least), then it does not make sense to me, to suggest that He might also have commented as though He did know that day or hour.

Not the day nor the hour, but he did predict his return in the lifetime of his apostles. (Matthew 16,28 and several other passages)

Just another example of Biblical contradiction. And evidence that Jesus is not God, and that the Good Book is not infallible.

[marco]

How is this sophistry, Marco?

I use the word in the sense that an elaborate interpretation is used to avoid an obvious problem. The sophistry isn't yours, Tam; it's an interpretation that is often employed. I think the term deceptive is not used in the sense of lying; but in any event I'm certainly not using sophistry to suggest lying. It is a form of argument that gets round difficult points and looks to all the world like a good argument. This is the meaning of deceptive here.

There are a number of explanations in this thread showing the meaning of the word 'genea', and those include 'kind' over 'time'. Christ used 'generation' in that way on more than just this occasion.

I know what genea means and I'm familiar with its application in Latin. I would never interpret the statement to mean people extending into the indefinite future. What possible limit could be placed on them? It just makes no sense to use this interpretation; to me it is clear that Christ meant what he said, not what some would want him to have said.

We can discuss what Jesus meant till the cows come home. It is such a shame he didn't anticipate our problems with his statements. A clarification here and there would have helped.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 285 by marco]

I know what genea means and I'm familiar with its application in Latin. I would never interpret the statement to mean people extending into the indefinite future. What possible limit could be placed on them? It just makes no sense to use this interpretation; to me it is clear that Christ meant what he said, not what some would want him to have said.

Many want him to have said what they assume as a given is what he meant to convey when he used the word "generation".

What he actually conveyed makes no sense to them.

We can discuss what Jesus meant till the cows come home. It is such a shame he didn't anticipate our problems with his statements. A clarification here and there would have helped.

We will always have problems with his statements if we take them all at face value and do not factor in that he was a spiritual teacher of spiritual values using spiritual concepts.