Heaven & the Resurrection

[JehovahsWitness]

Many believe that the righteous men and women from bible times such as Abraham, died and went to heaven.

If that is the case for you, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a future resurrection on "the last day"? What do you think this refers to.

JOHN 11: 24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

[onewithhim]

26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

This was said by Jesus further on in the verse. Which means you never die so therefor you must be somewhere the instant your physical body is dead. So, your soul or whatever must go to reside somewhere.

No physical bodies will be resurrected because there will be none once rotted away.

This just points out all the inconsistences in the bible. It means what you want it to mean or what you were taught it means.

JWs want to mean one thing to match their beliefs and Catholics another to match there beliefs and both are correct in that the bible supports whatever you want.

No, Jesus' words do NOT mean that if you believe in him you will never die. When we stick to the sane definitions of "death," we know that people DO die. When we recognize that Jesus likened death to "sleep," we know that when people die they are conscious of nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10; John 11:11-14). So Jesus must have been referring to his disciples who would be alive when he comes again, the second time.

Did you notice that he said that those who are ALIVE at his second coming will never die? There are millions of believers NOW living who will not die at all, if Jesus comes within our life-time. The Great Tribulation will break out and these believers will go through it and come out of it, having also survived Armageddon. That is what Jesus meant. Not that people don't really die if they believe in him. There have been many thousands, if not millions, who have believed in Jesus since the first century, and they died. They were still asleep in their graves, as it were, until early in the 20th century (for those with the heavenly hope). The believers (who have the hope of the Paradise Earth, and) who are alive at his second coming will have the privilege to never die.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 24 by Donray]

The facts of the matter will bear our your claim that JW's believe what they are told, no questions asked. This is particularly true of women in the movement. I have handy a copy of "Reasoning from the Scriptures," a major Watchtower publication, which outlines their ideology and which is intended for instructions in their field ministry. Here is what it has to say about women, pp. 432-433:
"Those charged with oversight of a congregation are described in the Bible as being males...Women are counseled "to learn in silence with full submissiveness" at congregational meetings, in that they do not raise questions challenging the men in the congregation. The women are "not to speak" at such meetings if what they might say demonstrates lack of subjection."
It is no surprise, then, that we find the manual defines the field of philosophy as follows: "
'The word philosophy is derived from Greek roots that mean 'love of wisdom. As used here philosophy is not built on acceptance of belief in God, but tries to give people a unified view of teh universe and endeavors to make them critical thinkers. It chiefly means rather than observations in a search for truth."

Since say one, JW propaganda has denounced higher education as unnecessary and a thing of the Devil anyway. Rev. Russell, one of their major founders, stated, "I advise all Christians not to send their children to colleges or universities; if if they do they will risk a great deal through infidelity and unbelief, and will do their children a positive harm. "

In 1969, Mar. 15, p. 171, "The Watchtower states:


"Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school...Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them brainwash you with the Devil's propaganda."

On and on it goes with this kind of propaganda. Reminds me of teh Red Guard in China attacking all the teachers and intellectuals. So bottom line: The Watchtower Society has earned the reputation of being an anti-intellectual, anti-social cult. It is top down leadership, with absolutely no room for questioning and no tolerance for teh critical, analytical skills fostered in institutions of higher education.

While I might agree that some liberal arts type colleges have major liberal agendas, I don't see any problem with analytical type colleges with degrees in things like engineering.

Now we are seeing evidence of the JW type bias being a reality in the current election. Most journalists have a traditional liberal arts type degree and are obviously slanted to the liberal agenda thereby more then likely to actively work with Hillary's people. So much for a non-bias media when the very colleges that teach journalism tend to be very liberal.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

My interpolation just you have yours. I guess Jesus did not know how to make clear and concise stuff.

Jesus was quite clear, if you read what he said without preconceived ideas. "Jesus said to her [Martha], 'Your brother will rise again.' Martha said to him, 'I KNOW THAT HE WILL RISE AGAIN IN THE RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY.' Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die." (John 11:23-26, NASB)

So, when would the dead rise again? ON THE LAST DAY. That day hasn't come yet.


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[Donray]

Most journalists have a traditional liberal arts type degree and are obviously slanted to the liberal agenda

Could you list these courses that you think are part of a liberal agenda?

You mean like grammar, English composition, music, math, writing, etc.

I don't think you know.

[Yahu]

Did you notice that he said that those who are ALIVE at his second coming will never die? There are millions of believers NOW living who will not die at all, if Jesus comes within our life-time. The Great Tribulation will break out and these believers will go through it and come out of it, having also survived Armageddon.

That is a very minor interpretation of events. Most Christians believe in either a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture and don't expect to live through the great tribulation while others think the tribulation period was about the destruction of Jerusalem and has already happened. I wouldn't even want to be around for the beginning of the tribulation.

If I held to the JW doctrine, which I don't, I would rather die at the beginning and 'sleep' through it personally. Who would want to be around to witness the majority of people alive being slaughtered by plagues and war and fire raining down on them?

The ONLY christians that will be present during the tribulation IMO are those that get saved after it starts. They will have to stay until the next resurrection/rapture.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by Checkpoint]

Like I said it is your justification and interpretation to support your beliefs.

You say that no bodies will be resurrected because they will have all rotted away. So that means that victims of fires have no hope; the people that went down with the Titanic have no hope? All the people in their graves have no hope? Don't you think that God can remember what they were---every atom of their previous existence?

Jesus demonstrated what the resurrection will be like when he brought the brother of Mary and Martha back to life. He was rotting, but he came out of his tomb upon Jesus' beckoning. (John 11:11-44)

[Yahu]

Most journalists have a traditional liberal arts type degree and are obviously slanted to the liberal agenda

Could you list these courses that you think are part of a liberal agenda?

You mean like grammar, English composition, music, math, writing, etc.

I don't think you know.

I went to an all engineering school with a degree in Electrical Engineering and minor in Engineering Mathematics. It was NOT liberal at all.

The type of courses I was suggesting is things like psyc or philosophy classes or social studies. Liberal art degrees tend to be more then just basic core classes with a broad scattering of material. I never, for example, had any science classes that even mentioned evolution. Chemistry, physics and engineering type material sciences were all that was taught.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to onewithhim]

The consensus of opinion in modern-day biblical scholarship is that Mark is the earliest Gospel. Matthew and Luke were probably written later, somewhere between 70-100 AD. Jn. was written between 90-100 AD.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 33 by onewithhim]

That, however, does not square with Lk. 23, where Jesus says you will be with me today in Paradise, or Lk. 16, where both the rich man and Lazarus went immediate to their eternal reward. It also does not square with teh OT accounts of Sheol, where the dead are alive, though barely, as semi-comatose shades, as we find in Isa. 14, for example. It dos seems to square with Paul, In I cor. 15. Therefore, some have said there are two resurrections form the dead, a immediate one at death, which is preliminary, and then a final judgment at the end of teh world. The problem is that the Bible says little about the hereafter and does grant highly conflicting pictures.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 32 by Yahu]

All divisions of higher education stress critical, analytical, cognitive skills. That is something JW ideology abhors, as higher education encourages people to think for themselves and ask questions. JW-type ideology is top-down leadership, a no-questions-asked approach, very anti-intellectual. Hence, what I am talking about has nothing to do with the election or the media.