The Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

How can Jehovah's Witnesses be the "one true church" if they themselves make mistakes and revise their doctrine, dogma and practices?

Exhibit a) before the NWT (New World Translation) of the Bible was published, Jehovah's Witnesses used the American Standard Version (ASV). Both translations honor the name of Jehovah but there are stark differences.

The NWT is the only translation (that I know of) which has Jesus "impaled on a stake" instead of crucified on a cross, as virtually every other translation posits.

The first volume of the NWT was originally released in 1950.

How can JWs be the "only true church" if it was evolving, fallible and subject to revision?

And exhibit b) how can JWs be the only true church with dimly supported and strange doctrines such as the belief that Jesus was Michael the Archangel before the Nativity?

Exhibit c) How can the JWs be the only true church if they falsely predicted that Jesus would return in 1914?

And when that return did not materialized, they revised their prediction and now conveniently claim his return was "invisible".

"One true Church" or fringe sect?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 28 by 2timothy316]
Or perhaps we can roll back this fallible uninspired mistaken concept back to Moses and conclude the whole ridiculous concept is the imagination of men?

Let's say that it is, then what? Do our own thing? Go murder because we think God wants us to?

Your reasoning opens up God's will to anyone and any concept. This is already happening. How is working out so far? Do you watch the news?

Or lets say mankind has the correct way to live life. Who gets to decide that? By way of democracy? Is there a human way of government that can solve all of mankind's problems?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 31 by 2timothy316] What are you implying? Statistically nonbelievers are no more likely to kill someone than a believer. Also theocracies always self destruct.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 31 by 2timothy316] What are you implying? Statistically nonbelievers are no more likely to kill someone than a believer.
Also theocracies always self destruct.

Yes they do because nonbelievers enter their ranks. "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." Acts 20:29, 30

This was allowed to happen so that the nations will have their turn at ruling. Until that time is over, God's government will be 'trampled' or suppressed. "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." Luke 21:24.

So according to the Bible there will be a theocracy that will last forever. Because the leadership will be in Heaven and not on Earth nor be 'passed on to people'. “The God of heaven will set up a kingdom [government] that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.� (Daniel 2:44)

[postroad]

[Replying to post 33 by 2timothy316]. The dissent comes from within their own ranks. As to the prophecy of Daniel.

Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.�

Revelation 22:7
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.�

Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

Perhaps a retraction of any claims to infallibility Would be in order?

[William]

[Replying to post 28 by 2timothy316]
Or perhaps we can roll back this fallible uninspired mistaken concept back to Moses and conclude the whole ridiculous concept is the imagination of men?

Let's say that it is, then what? Do our own thing? Go murder because we think God wants us to?

Your reasoning opens up God's will to anyone and any concept. This is already happening. How is working out so far? Do you watch the news?

Or lets say mankind has the correct way to live life. Who gets to decide that? By way of democracy? Is there a human way of government that can solve all of mankind's problems?

Potentially I think that there is.

But yes, the things you speak about make this potential sit at the starting gate while the starters gun-smoke has long dissipated and the worlds leaders are full throttle assured that the suppression has worked its magic.

I can;t help thinking though that there is some hole in the story?

Sitting staring at the chain holding the gate shut, and relying on some promised event to change that and have you win the race after-all - through a promise attributed to a GOD...tell me (for perhaps I forget) - but does the bible not speak about the antichrist having to do its thing BEFORE Jesus can return to fix the mess the leaders of humanity forced us all to create?

What do those upon the Watchtower have to say about that?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 28 by 2timothy316]
Or perhaps we can roll back this fallible uninspired mistaken concept back to Moses and conclude the whole ridiculous concept is the imagination of men?

Let's say that it is, then what? Do our own thing? Go murder because we think God wants us to?

Your reasoning opens up God's will to anyone and any concept. This is already happening. How is working out so far? Do you watch the news?

Or lets say mankind has the correct way to live life. Who gets to decide that? By way of democracy? Is there a human way of government that can solve all of mankind's problems?

Potentially I think that there is.

Well, after thousands of years of mankind trying I appreciate your optimism but can't share it. I think we will find implementation a problem. On potential, mankind has the potential to end hunger world wide right now. Yet that's not even a government and they can't do that. The list of mankind's 'potential' is long. Yet the accomplishments on that list are miserably short.

But yes, the things you speak about make this potential sit at the starting gate while the starters gun-smoke has long dissipated and the worlds leaders are full throttle assured that the suppression has worked its magic.

I can;t help thinking though that there is some hole in the story?

Sitting staring at the chain holding the gate shut, and relying on some promised event to change that and have you win the race after-all - through a promise attributed to a GOD.

Do we not both share some sort of hope of something better? Your hope is placed in mankind's potential and mine is place in God's potential. Isn't time the only thing that actually prove who's hope is true and who's is false? But what should we do until then?

..tell me (for perhaps I forget) - but does the bible not speak about the antichrist having to do its thing BEFORE Jesus can return to fix the mess the leaders of humanity forced us all to create?

What do those upon the Watchtower have to say about that?

Antichrists have been around since the time of the apostles. "Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18.

There is no one person that is the antichrist. John used the term “antichrist� five times in two of his epistles. It refers to an entity that opposes what the Bible teaches about Jesus Christ and includes impostors who present themselves as Christ or as sent by him. The Bible gives reliable information about the antichrist. But as sometimes happens with felons, unfounded reports regarding this enigmatic entity have received more notice than the truth.

So by the Bible's viewpoint, the world now is filled with antichrists. Many claiming to be sent by Jesus but their message doesn't match up with what the Bible teaches. They are masters of confusion (2 John 7) and use political powers to enforce their will. (Luke 21:12)

If you'd like there is a short article on the subject. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102001568

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 33 by 2timothy316]. The dissent comes from within their own ranks. As to the prophecy of Daniel.

Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.�

Revelation 22:7
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.�

Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

Perhaps a retraction of any claims to infallibility Would be in order?

Infallibility of who? People? Every person that has ever lived except Jesus are fallible. What need is there of retraction? The only person the Bible claims is infallible is Jesus. “He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth� (1 Peter 2:22).

Also, I don't see what the quoted scriptures here are supposed to be supporting concerning your assertion.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 37 by 2timothy316]
He didn't come "soon" even though the context was given. That being that the time was so short that there was no need to seal the scroll. The "soon" train has left the station. It was a false prophecy in the same way the 1914 debacle of your orginization.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 37 by 2timothy316]
He didn't come "soon" even though the context was given. That being that the time was so short that there was no need to seal the scroll. The "soon" train has left the station. It was a false prophecy in the same way the 1914 debacle of your orginization.

Soon is a relative term when speaking about God. So is a day. 2 Peter 3:8 says that 1000 years is like a day to God. So soon to you is not the same as soon to Jehovah God.

How can you be so sure Jesus didn't come into rule on 1914? Isn't the Bible describing that your reasoning would be predominate during the last days? "First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.� 2 Peter 3:3, 4

The last days are during Jesus rule. Jesus said that most people would take “no note� of his presence, carrying on with life’s normal activities until it is too late. (Matt. 24:37-39) Is this not exactly your position?

[William]

[Replying to post 28 by 2timothy316]
Or perhaps we can roll back this fallible uninspired mistaken concept back to Moses and conclude the whole ridiculous concept is the imagination of men?

Let's say that it is, then what? Do our own thing? Go murder because we think God wants us to?

Your reasoning opens up God's will to anyone and any concept. This is already happening. How is working out so far? Do you watch the news?

Or lets say mankind has the correct way to live life. Who gets to decide that? By way of democracy? Is there a human way of government that can solve all of mankind's problems?

Potentially I think that there is.

Well, after thousands of years of mankind trying I appreciate your optimism but can't share it.

You are a pessimist about it?

I think we will find implementation a problem.

In what way?

On potential, mankind has the potential to end hunger world wide right now. Yet that's not even a government and they can't do that. The list of mankind's 'potential' is long. Yet the accomplishments on that list are miserably short.

Perhaps but there has been a lot which is already being accomplished. How do you think Jesus will sort it?

But yes, the things you speak about make this potential sit at the starting gate while the starters gun-smoke has long dissipated and the worlds leaders are full throttle assured that the suppression has worked its magic.

I can't help thinking though that there is some hole in the story?

Sitting staring at the chain holding the gate shut, and relying on some promised event to change that and have you win the race after-all - through a promise attributed to a GOD.

Do we not both share some sort of hope of something better?

Perhaps.

Your hope is placed in mankind's potential and mine is place in God's potential.

If GOD has to intervene to that measure then is that not an admission of failure? Or will GOD settle for receiving glory and praise for a job well done?

Isn't time the only thing that actually prove who's hope is true and who's is false?

Well for the time being, what difference does it make whether I believe or don't believe that Jesus will return to clean up the mess?
The way I see it, as long as I am NOW doing what I can to bring my potential to fruition and inject into this world NOW my support for human potential, it can't hurt and certainly would be something worthwhile to do with my time now.
Why would anyone, including you, use their own beliefs to try and talk me out of supporting that?

But what should we do until then?

Inject our belief in humanity into our immediate sphere of influence and encourage that from others.

How do we know that this promise of Jesus returning isn't:

1: Yet another lie told in the name of GOD?
2: An infiltrated diversion tactic designed for the hopeless, to make the Antichrists job easier?
(ie. how the lie is told in the name of GOD [2=1])

How do we even know that GOD hasn't changed his mind about this, thinking maybe there is a point in trusting in his creation that we will eventually get it sorted without any major extraterrestrial intervention. Certainly the bible shows well enough that GOD is open to the right type of reasoning.

Sorry but there are too many gaps for me to be thinking the best move is to go around telling people it is hopeless apart from believing a GOD is going to eventually prove itself.

Because nowadays we know enough already not to be moved into thinking some GOD has saved the day by landing on the planet with all the answers and military might to back him up and by that we will all somehow believe such an entity is a GOD and worship him/his race. Rather, humanity will see merely a highly advanced leader of a species who just did what he ought to do and he will not be thought of as anything more special because of that.

See? The jig is up, as the saying goes. His/their help would be appreciated but I don't see how any advanced being is going to think he/they could get away with such a charade, knowing what we all know about our universe to date.

Therefore it is best just to support human beings supporting each other and getting the job down and dusted ourselves, which as you point out, your beliefs do not permit you to do.

..tell me (for perhaps I forget) - but does the bible not speak about the antichrist having to do its thing BEFORE Jesus can return to fix the mess the leaders of humanity forced us all to create?

What do those upon the Watchtower have to say about that?

Antichrists have been around since the time of the apostles...

Are they the type who would tell you that humanity is a hopeless cause which needs outside intervention?

I say, yep - that is certainly possible. I best counter that with some action of my own.

eta

because quite frankly as far as I can tell, that is what Jesus wants me to do.