"True worship acceptable to God"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the only group which practices "true worship acceptable to God" and that all other sects do not.

Seems an extraordinary claim.

Prove it!,... Give us extraordinary proof to support your extraordinary claim.

[Elijah John]

Oh yes we can, and I have supplied support for this claim many times in the past. But I guess it goes right over everybody's heads. This will be lengthy, but you asked for it again.

Should it take lengthy explanations to demonstrate that one's position is true? Shouldn't God's truth to humanity be simple and easy for all to comprehend?

(1) "By their fruits you will recognize" the true from the false (Matt.7:15-23). Jesus said that the true worshipers would actually be DOING the will of the Father. This list will show some of the identifying marks of the true worshipers.

I have seen the fruits of the Spirit evident in the lives of Jews, Roman Catholics, Evangelicals and Muslims too, as well as JWs. That suggests to me that Truth is more universal than you make it out to be.

(2) "God is love." (I John 4:8) Jesus showed that the most outstanding mark of those who follow his example is that they would have love among themselves. He said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:35) It must be a love that deeply affects every aspect of one's daily life. It should influence how one treats the other members of his family; it should affect one's attitude toward people of other races and nations. True worshipers seek what is truly in the best interests of others (IJohn 3:18)

I have seen love too, evident in the lives of non-JW's. You do not have a monopoly on that either.

(3) To further the point about love: Do the religious organizations with which you have been acquainted instill in their members a love that is so strong that it still is in action even in difficult times? What do they do, for example, when there is war between nations? By far the majority of them have been willing for their members to go out on the battlefield and slaughter their fellow believers that happen to be of another nationality, at the command of worldly men. Is such a course according to God's Word? Does it reflect the spirit of God?

When so-called "Christian" governments like the Third Reich commit atrocities against God's people, should other, more civilized "Christian" nations stand idly by?

IJohn 3:10-12: "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother [How can a person love his fellow believer of another nation and yet kill him?]. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. (NASB)

Matthew 5:44: "But I [Jesus] say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (NASB) Jesus takes it even further than loving your fellow believer.....he says even to love our enemies! Where does going to war fit in with that?

Jesus preached an ideal for individuals, not nations. He also spoke in hyperbole. If it weren't for the intervention of the allies, your people JWs would likely have been wiped out, at least in Europe, along with Gypsies and Jews.

(4) Not everyone has followed this course, have they? Who are the ones that can say with the apostle Paul, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare in the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly." (2 Corinthians 10:3,4) Who cannot be found guilty for living a lie by saying, "I love God," while hating his brother of another nation (IJohn 4:20,21) or even his enemy of another nation?

One need not hate one's enemy in order to subdue them, by any means necessary.

(5) How do Jesus' true followers show love in other ways? UNITY is a big one. Unity with fellow Christians in all lands. (Galatians 6:10) Other scripture also leaves no room for doubt about this: "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you." (I Corinthians 1:10, NASB) People can't believe that it is possible. Why? Undoubtedly because their own religious organization is not unified. Whose religion shows unity throughout the earth

Yet you have not reconciled yourselves with other Christian denominations. Your insular group had abstained from all ecumenical attempts, haven't they.

(6) Another mark of true religion is respect for God's Word. Jesus set this pattern by showing the highest respect for the Scriptures. He quoted them as the final authority on matters. He continually referred his listeners to the Scriptures (Matt.19:4-6; Luke 24:44,45). He showed his deep respect for the Bible by living in accord with its teachings every day. He condemned those who failed to teach in harmony with it and who tried to weaken its authority with their own teachings. (Mark 7:9-13) What organization does not incorporate teachings of men (that were solidified way after Jesus was on earth, e.g., the teaching of the Trinity that was made part of Christendom's doctrines after the 4th century)?


(continued)

Jesus condemned legalism, and those who adhered to the letter of the Law. Your group has simply traded in the old Law for a new legalism based on legalistic blood transaction, human sacrifice and rigid interpretation of the Bible. NT authors added to Jesus' Bible, a practice warned against in Proverbs.

Plus you add Paul's pastoral letters, opinions and theological speculations as "Sacred Scripture". Yet your group ignores him when it suits you.

[Elijah John]

(7) Further evidence of truly doing God's will is sanctifying God's name. When Jesus taught his followers how to pray, he showed them that this should be their first concern. He said, "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed by your name.'" Or, "let your name be sanctified." (Matt.6:9, NASB) This means treating it as something holy, not spurning even the usage of His name. Jesus did not fail to use his Father's name, nor did he treat it as unimportant. He said, "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave me out of the world....I have made Your name known to them, and I will make it known." (John 17:6,26, NASB) He set the example in telling the world that name and honoring that name.

You're not the only group that honor's God's name. More and more Evangelicals are doing the same, an encouraging development. And also Roman Catholics published a Bible which restores the Divine Name Yahweh to the Hebrew portion of the Scriptures, the "Old" Testament. The RCC Jerusalem and New Jerusalem translations.

Your group by constrast has played "fast and loose" with the NWT. How is that "true worship"?

It is my understanding that it was the Jews who were God's "people who were called by my Name". Although admittedly I don't know how, perhaps in ancient times Jews and Israelites were called "Yahweh's people", or perhaps "called by my Name" is a non-literal expression.

Also, the Scriptures show that the main purpose for the existence of the congregation that God has called out of the world is to be " a people for his name." (Acts 15:14) We all must know and honor the name of God. (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Though you might not agree with this, what organization is most prominently known for honoring God's name as Jesus did?

Now, it is the Jehovah's Witnesses, but has it always been so? It is my understanding that was not the original name of your group.

Also, being "called out" or "holy" was first applied to Jews, YHWH's people. And now, all Abrahamic religion is based on YHWH, the God of Abraham. Including Jews, Christians and arguably Muslims.

(8) True worshipers also preach the Kingdom of God as mankind's only hope. Jehovah has clearly stated that the Kingdom is his provision for governing the earth.

DANIEL 2:44; 7:13,14: "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left to other people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever....To him [the Son of man] was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and his Kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." (NASB) Who preach that God's Kingdom is a real government that will replace worldy governments?

Jesus himself preached that the Kingdom was within, and also impending in the lifetimes of his apostles. I think your group gets bogged down in legalism, and literalism. Too hung up on details.

Even to the point of Russell's failed prediction of 1914. How is that "true worship"?

(9) Another requirement of true religion is that it keeps separate from the world and its affairs. This is unappetizing to most people, it seems, but the Scriptures are clear. We must give respect to the authorities and obey the laws of our particular government (Romans 13:1), unless its law conflicts with God's. Do the churches you know of throw aside God's laws and go along with worldly politics? Jesus' brother James said this about getting involved with the politics of the world:

"You [spiritual] adulteresses [and adulterers], do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." (JAMES 4:4, NASB)

Yet you mistakenly consider others who love God and seek Him as "part of the "world" and insulate yourselves from your brother and sister believers, which are more universal than you suppose.

Seems to me that unnessary divisiveness is not "true worship" either.

So, do we immediately defend the position of the organization we are acquainted with that gets involved with the world's politics? Isn't that going directly against what the Scriptures say? Are there ANY organizations that follow the Scriptures and are no part of the world? (John 17:14)

The true followers of Christ are evident by whoever is following all of these identifying marks. Who could it be? I am confident that JWs can rightly say that they follow all of them. There is no room, scripturally, to say, "Oh but we HAVE to go to war to save our freedom, and we HAVE to get involved with worldly politics so that we can [blah blah blah]!" That thinking does NOT agree with Scripture; it does not agree with things right out of Jesus' mouth.

Your very ability to freely say these things are the result of others who have gone to war on your behalf.

You should honor and be grateful for THEIR sacrifice.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 31 by Elijah John]

Should it take lengthy explanations to demonstrate that one's position is true? Shouldn't God's truth to humanity be simple and easy for all to comprehend?

Right.
It could be VERY simple.. but what would be the fun of that?

Must get very boring in heaven.
They've probably seen it all up there.

So, I'm not surprised that they want to spin it a bit mysterious.
After all, without apologetics and preachers, how could we ever get to know?

Thank god for them.

[tam]

[Replying to post 26 by tam]




[center]
EXTREMELY BAD ADVICE[/center]

"You have heard it said, 'eye for eye and tooth for tooth'. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

Do you understand? Do you see?

What I see, tam, what I understand, is Jesus reputedly giving extremely bad advice.

It's not advice.

It is a command - given to those of us who would follow Him.


HE did not strike back when He was struck. He did not demand life for life when he was persecuted, tortured, lied about, murdered. He GAVE His life FOR our lives, even for those who had made themselves His enemies. He even asked forgiveness for them.


We who belong to and follow Him are to do the same.

Apparently, good Christians should encourage terrorists to strike again.

Christians are not permitted to strike first or to strike back, even against enemies. We are not to repay evil with evil. Of course some of those who call themselves Christians do both (strike first and strike back). But then, who are they obeying?





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 34 by tam]

It's not advice.

It is a command - given to those of us who would follow Him.

Ok, then.
[center]

EXTREMELY BAD COMMAND
[/center]

[tam]

[Replying to post 30 by Blastcat]


Thank you for your opinion, Blastcat.

Of course, this is not really the point of my post (re: the claim that the final authority is the bible, rather than the truth that the final authority - except over His own Father - is Christ.) So I am not really interested in getting into a different topic with you at the moment and on this thread.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Elijah John:

In your post #12 you accused JWs of not being able to demonstrate why we think we have the true religion. Well, I took you up on your challenge, and wrote extensively on the subject.

Would you comment on my posts #20 and #22 please? You asked for these comments.

.

That's not exactly what I said. I believe you have your reasons as why you THINK you have the true religion. But you can not demonstrate that you actually do.

I'll get to your posts sometime.

Well, I read your comments on my posts, and all I have left to say is that I have discussed all of the points where you disagree with us on, previously, and I can see my explanations made little impact. There is nothing left to say, besides going over and over and over again what we have already talked about ad nauseum.

What you cannot fault us for is for our "inability" to show from the Bible that we are the one true religion that is following Jesus' teachings. I have shown you that we can show you this. You argue with his clear teachings that we must not kill our own spiritual brothers in another land, and that we must love even our enemies. We do not argue against Jesus' commands.

You have the problem of figuring out how you are going to continue to count Jesus' teachings as worthless, and how to continue to cling to your distorted views on what makes a true Christian, in spite of what the Bible says.


.

[Elijah John]

You have the problem of figuring out how you are going to continue to count Jesus' teachings as worthless, and how to continue to cling to your distorted views on what makes a true Christian, in spite of what the Bible says.


.

Just because we disagree on interpretation does not mean that I "continue to count Jesus' teachings as worthless" as you charge.

"In spite of what the Bible says"? Correction, in spite of what YOU (and your organization) say the Bible says.

[onewithhim]

You have the problem of figuring out how you are going to continue to count Jesus' teachings as worthless, and how to continue to cling to your distorted views on what makes a true Christian, in spite of what the Bible says.


.

Just because we disagree on interpretation does not mean that I "continue to count Jesus' teachings as worthless" as you charge.

"In spite of what the Bible says"? Correction, in spite of what YOU (and your organization) say the Bible says.

Can you tell me what scriptures in my posts are NOT what I think they say? Can you explain, for example, how I'm wrong in my understanding of Matthew 5:44 and John 13:35?

.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

We hold our beliefs because we hold the entire bible as the infallible and perfect word of God and our own partitular interpretation of the bible at any given time to be true.

So if I'm reading this correctly...the Bible, the entirety of it, is infallible and perfect. Okay, I understand that. I don't agree with it of course, but I understand it as a concept.

But here's where it gets interesting. "Our own particular interpretation of the Bible at any given time to be true".
What does that mean? That any JW interpretation of the Bible, at any given time, is true? So...when the Watchtower declares X to be true, and is based on the Bible, in Year Y, and then the Watchtower declares not-X to be true and based on the Bible in the Year Y+5...it's still true?

In an earlier discussion I had with you in particular, JW, in another thread, over the Garden of Eden and the eating of the fruit, you disagreed with the idea that eating the fruit imparted knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve even though this is what the text says.
Is this because the current JW interpretation of the week is that the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that when eaten, opens up Adam's and Eve's eyes to the fact that they are naked (as stated in the text) is that this fruit does not impart knowledge and/or understanding?