When is Passover?

[showme]

When is the actual date of the Passover, and the actual date of the Feast of Unleavened Bread? (Numbers 28:16-17)

The traditions of the Jewish Pharisees, and the followers of the "Christian" Pharisee of Pharisees, are not the same as the Word of God.(Numbers 28:16-17) & (Lev 23:5-6). & John 20:31. A "high day" "Sabbath", is not the same as a Sabbath. The 14th of day of the first month was not a high holy day. It was a day when you could put people on the cross, break "their legs" and take the leaven out of the house. The 14th of Nissan, at the time of the crucifixion, was on a Wednesday, the high holy Sabbath, the Feast of the Unleavened Bread, the 15th of Nissan, was on a Thursday, and 3 days and 3 nights later, on the evening of the regular Sabbath, Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty on the dawn of the 1st day of the week, which starts at sundown of the previous day. Between the harlot Judah (Rev 17:16), and the "daughters of Babylon" (Zech 2:7), the "Christian church", the world seems to be going in circles, and truth seems to remain at bay.

King James Bible John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Numbers 28: 16Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORDS Passover. 17 On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days. 18On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work

[showme]

The passover would fall on Nissan 14 by the Lunar calander. This corresponds to March 31st and is the same night Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide will be commemorating the death of Jesus.

This is not true. At least on the "invitation" I received. Pesach begins before sundown on Oct 30. The JW commemoration is after sundown on Oct. 31.

How do you do your calculations? (I take it you mean March not October)

Sorry, typo Mar. 30 & 31.

Verse 18 says the 14th at evening(or between the evenings, i.e. sunset). Since the 14th(30th) is the preparation and sacrifice day, the standard Seder can not be until just before erev 15(31st). Since Yeshua both officiated the seder and was sacrificed, there has to have been some accommodation. I believe an early Seder was permitted to accommodate the large number of sacrifices that were necessary. That accommodation would have to have been for an early sacrifice and Seder, not a late one. This is primarily because Yeshua was taken down and hastely laid in the tomb to avoid the desecration of a Shabbat, i.e. Pesach, erev 15th. Those touching the body would need to perform a mikvah(baptism) before sundown in order to observe Pesach. He could not have been executed on the fifteenth(31st), because that was a Shabbat(Pesach, not weekly as it is this year) and commemoration on the evening following would be erev 16(Apr. 1). Peach would have been ruined for those touching the body and they would have to repeat the Seder and Shabbat a month later.

Of course one can do a commemoration of Yeshua's death any time. However, if one wishes to be accurate one would recognize it shortly before and/or after the sunset of the 14th. In addition, verse 10 states, "And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning". So, even a mid day to sunset commemoration on the 15th(31st) would not be accurate, let alone after the sunset of the 15th(31st).

I do not think that FWI is correct, because the verse regarding the 14th to the 21st states chodesh erev for the 14th, that is renewing of the evening and for the 21st it says chodesh erev erev, that is renewing of the evening of evenings. I believe the word chodesh(blessing or renewing) indicates ending sunset, just as Rosh Chodesh refers to the renewing of the month. So, the seven days includes erev 15 through the 21st to sunset.

You guys need to get your act together. Try using a Jewish OT. See sample below. Then you can't get mixed up about between the evenings being after sunset, which is the next day. The 14th of the first month, starts after sunset of the previous day. The last supper occurred around 12 hours previous to the crucifixion, which crucifixion occurred on the afternoon of the 14th day of the 1st month. After sunset of the 14th day is the Feast of the Unleavened bread, which is a high holy Sabbath, whereas no one can labor. If you have any small children, ask them to straighten this out for you. The Passover lamb is eaten in haste and with bitter herbs on the eve of the 15th of the 1st month, and at mid night, of the 15th, comes the angel of death.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873

Exodus 12:6
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.


Young's Literal Translation
'And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 27 by bluethread]

So I ask you to provide proof that NISAN 14 falls on the 30th and you say

Since the 14th(30th) is the preparation .

Isn't this an axiom?

... if one wishes to be accurate one would recognize it shortly before and/or after the sunset of the 14th.

Are you claiming to accurately have calculated what date corresponds to Nissan 14? If so please share how you came to 30th?

Oh, you are asking about the accuracy of the rabbinic calendar? That is the calander I used. The Gregorian calendar does not even try to coordinate with the biblical calendar. It is interesting that Yeshua went along with the levitical calendar of His time. Also, the Scriptures indicate that we are to look to the Levites on such matters. Given the necessity to align the calendar every so often to keep the feasts in the right season, that is what is required. That said, the person who gave me the "invitation" appeared to be rather certain that the evening of the 31st is the proper day this year. How is it this day was chosen by your denomination, since it is a denominational mandate?

[JehovahsWitness]

Oh, you are asking about the accuracy of the rabbinic calendar? That is the calander I used.

Do you believe that the modern day rabbinic calendar accurately reflects how Jesus and first century Jews calculated the date?

The present Hebrew calendar is the product of evolution, including a Babylonian influence.

Until the Tannaitic period, the calendar employed a new crescent moon, with an additional month normally added every two or three years to correct for the difference between twelve lunar months and the solar year. The year in which it was added was based on observation of natural agriculture-related events in Israel.

SOURCE
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

RELATED POSTS


When was the Sedar Passover meal moved from Nisan 14 to the 15th?
viewtopic.php?p=1083057#p1083057

[TripleZ]

I agree with your timeline. However, that time line does not apply this year, since Pesach does not always fall on the same day for the week, unless you follow the Karite calendar. That said, if one does follow the Karite calendar, Pesach would always be on a weekly Shabbat, as it is this year. This creates a timeline problem for the Karite follower of Yeshua, because that would result in a "Thursday night" seder, a "Friday" trial and death, and a "Monday night" or "Tuesday morning" resurrection. For the Karite, there is no argument for it depending on what year one is talking about. For the Karite every year, as every month, is the same. for the the first day of every month is also the first day of the week.

,, here's a thought, ask a Jew...

[showme]

[Replying to post 27 by bluethread]

So I ask you to provide proof that NISAN 14 falls on the 30th and you say

Since the 14th(30th) is the preparation .

Isn't this an axiom?

... if one wishes to be accurate one would recognize it shortly before and/or after the sunset of the 14th.

Are you claiming to accurately have calculated what date corresponds to Nissan 14? If so please share how you came to 30th?

Oh, you are asking about the accuracy of the rabbinic calendar? That is the calander I used. The Gregorian calendar does not even try to coordinate with the biblical calendar. It is interesting that Yeshua went along with the levitical calendar of His time. Also, the Scriptures indicate that we are to look to the Levites on such matters. Given the necessity to align the calendar every so often to keep the feasts in the right season, that is what is required. That said, the person who gave me the "invitation" appeared to be rather certain that the evening of the 31st is the proper day this year. How is it this day was chosen by your denomination, since it is a denominational mandate?

The "evening of the 31st", the day of the full moon, the 14th, starts after sunset on the 13th of the 1st month. The last supper was after sundown of the 30th of March, the day before the full moon, the 31st of March, the 14th of the 1st month. The last supper preceded the crucifixion, it didn't follow it. The 14th of month is the "LORD's Passover. It requires a meal of unleavened bread.


New American Standard Bible Exodus 12:18
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening.


That entails 8 days of eating unleavened bread. The Passover and the 7 days of unleavened bread.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 33 by showme]


Not at all we just follow the system Jesus did. I can but ask you the same question I asked bluethread.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 62#p910962

I believe he understood my point - and no more has to be said.


JW

[TripleZ]

When is the actual date of the Passover, and the actual date of the Feast of Unleavened Bread? (Numbers 28:16-17)

Jehovah's Witnesses commemorate the death of Our Lord Jesus on the same night as the first century Jews celebrated their Passover - this year (2018) it falls on 31st March after sundown.

[youtube][/youtube]

,, have you thought to actually ask a Jew or someone in a Synagogue ? I am sure that one of those will know....

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 35 by TripleZ]

I don't follow man I follow God., if I'd have asked a Jew in Jerusalem on 14 NISAN, 33 C E he'd have probably told me to throw a stone at Jesus - I don't need to ask a Jew how to read the bible, any more than I need to ask one how to identify the Messiah.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[bluethread]

,, here's a thought, ask a Jew...

Which Jew, a Kariite, an Ashkenazi, or a Sephard? Ashkenazi's and Sephards are in agreement, the Karites are the only ones I know of who disagree.

[bluethread]

The "evening of the 31st", the day of the full moon, the 14th, starts after sunset on the 13th of the 1st month. The last supper was after sundown of the 30th of March, the day before the full moon, the 31st of March, the 14th of the 1st month. The last supper preceded the crucifixion, it didn't follow it. The 14th of month is the "LORD's Passover. It requires a meal of unleavened bread.


New American Standard Bible Exodus 12:18
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening.


That entails 8 days of eating unleavened bread. The Passover and the 7 days of unleavened bread.

The full moon is not the consideration. It is just a coincidence. The full moon is not exactly 14 days after Rosh Chodesh (new renewal or blessing). It is 14.76 days. So, the full moon can often occur on the 15th rather than the 14th. Meteorologically, Rosh Chodesh (Nisan 1) was on Mar. 17, 4:14 PM Israel time, 6:14 AM PDT. That makes Nisan 14 March 30th.

As I stated in post #27, Exodus 12:18 literally says, the 14th day at chodesh erev(renewed or blessed evening) and the 21st day at chodesh erev erev(renewed or blessed evening of evenings). This has been understood not as "the evening of" but "between the evenings". Now, one could include preparation/sacrifice day, with Seder at the end of that day. However, this would mean that one would start eating matzah the evening before the sacrifice and not at the Seder following the sacrifice. It would also mean that either the 21st is not part of the Feast of First Fruit, or we are talking about Pesach AND the Feast of First Fruit as seperate. In the latter case, hametz(leaven) would only need to be verified as removed sometime on the 14th and eaten for the first time during the Seder. However, how could the 14th be a day of rest, of one is searching for hametz? That doesn't even take into account the fact that those who removed Yeshua's body could not have observed, if the Seder had to be performed before sundown? They would have been unclean until evening after performing a mikvah. Therefore, it appears to me that the 14th(3/30) is the preparation/sacrifice day and, as evening approaches, is Adonai's Pesach, a Shabbat Chedosh, leading into the feast of First Fruit, which lasts for seven days through the 21st(4/6), as evening approaches. I don't see how anything else can work.