Free will & destiny

[Menotu]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Within Christianity, which exists?
Some say everyone has free will, but looking back at the biblical stories, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple; someone had to betray Jesus.
Where those people acting on free will, or were they forced to play their part in the grand plan?
If they had free will, surely God knew what they would do and had to plan accordingly?
Or does his plan supersede all human understanding?
And if that's the case, how are we to understand anything about him?

[Adstar]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

Well it is very hard to explain this using Human language.. All i can use is an analogy.. But think of it this way.. All the things that where ever going to happen in the universe had in a way already happened at the moment of creation of this universe, from Gods Point of View outside the Universe... So the universe and it's history is like a picture.. that can be viewed by God in it's totality at one time.. But for us inside this picture we go from one pixel to the next.. Day by day and each new pixel is revealed to us one at a time..

So you're saying that the wicked acts of a person existed in God's thoughts before they existed in the person. Blades of grass are not my concern, but the acts of wickedness mankind act out are. When does God know these acts are going to happen? is it before or after a person comes into existence?

I am saying that God foreknew the evil that every individual would do before they where born, before they came into this universe existence..

Not sure how much clearer i can be about my belief..

[Adstar]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]


It is a long question and I dont think Adstar is speaking about predestination but of foreknowledge which isn't the same thing. Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good. I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

JW

As I said before on this thread, God can CHOOSE what He wants to know. Otherwise He couldn't keep a straight face when telling people that THEY can choose to be rotten or good.

(Deuteronomy 30:19b,20).

I disagree.. God can and does foreknow what an individual will choose by their own free will and thus He can keep a straight face when he invites them to make their personal response to the Will He has revealed to them..

God does say in scripture that He can and He will forget the transgressions of those whom He will be saving.. But that is different from saying He can decide to not know something initially..

Hebrews 10: KJV
15 "Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, {16} This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; {17} And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

[Adstar]

As I said before on this thread, God can CHOOSE what He wants to know. Otherwise He couldn't keep a straight face when telling people that THEY can choose to be rotten or good.

This doesn't add up logically. Before God could "CHOOSE what He wants to know", he'd have to know those things he is choosing not to know.

If God is omniscient, there is nothing he could not know. If he isn't omniscient, one would have to question why he earned the title "God."


Tcg

I agree.. Not often i agree with you But i do agree with this post..

[Adstar]

Again, thank you, Adstar, for bringing up Paul's use of the word 'foreknowledge' in Romans 8:29.

The common meaning of 'to foreknow' is to know something beforehand, in advance of its happening, so many believe God foresees who will believe, and that this foreknowledge is the basis of His predestination. But this cannot be right, for at least two reasons:

• A. In this sense God foreknows everybody and everything, whereas Paul is referring to a particular group ("...those whom He foreknew...").
  
  B. If God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, and this is contrary to Paul's whole emphasis, here, namely God's free initiative of grace.

.

I disagree with point B. God clearly distinguishes Faith from Works.. But many Calvinists and others ( of like minded sects ) keep on saying that our Faith is a Works if it is not forced upon us by God.. But again the Bible makes it clear that Faith cannot be one of those Works like Good works of charity or religious Works of keeping holy days or works like our attempts at sin avoidance..

God does act to ""Move "" people by the conviction of His Holy Spirit and it is true that all who are saved are called by God.. So the calling of God is essential for the salvation of anyone.. But God also revealed through His prophets that human beings can and do resist the conviction of His Holy Spirit.. Something calvinists and other like minded sects preach is impossible..

Of course the Apostle Stephen who was stoned to death by the Jews told them that they had resisted the Holy Spirit just as their forefathers had done when the murdered the prophets before Jesus..

Acts 7: KJV
51 " Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. {52} Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:"

[PinSeeker]

Again, thank you, Adstar, for bringing up Paul's use of the word 'foreknowledge' in Romans 8:29.

The common meaning of 'to foreknow' is to know something beforehand, in advance of its happening, so many believe God foresees who will believe, and that this foreknowledge is the basis of His predestination. But this cannot be right, for at least two reasons:

• A. In this sense God foreknows everybody and everything, whereas Paul is referring to a particular group ("...those whom He foreknew...").
  
  B. If God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, and this is contrary to Paul's whole emphasis, here, namely God's free initiative of grace.

I disagree with point B.

Well of course you do. But that's the problem with your understanding I'm trying to point out. One out of two is not bad, but it needs to be two out of two to be correct.

God clearly distinguishes Faith from Works...

Yes, He certainly does. But, Calvinist or not, regarding our salvation, what is very clearly Biblically true is, God has to make the first move, taking out the "heart of stone" we are all born with -- we are all naturally spiritually dead -- and replacing it with "heart of flesh" -- give us spiritual life. As Ezekiel says in chapter 36 of his prophecy and Paul refers to in Romans 9:

• "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."

...many Calvinists and others ( of like minded sects ) keep on saying that our Faith is a Works if it is not forced upon us by God.

No, I think you misunderstand. What is being said is, if it is said that faith is what we, in and of ourselves, what we contribute to our salvation -- thereby meriting salvation by mustering any level of saving faith in ourselves -- then faith is at least inadvertently made out to be a work of man, which is absolutely untrue according to God's Word. God, by His Spirit in His salvific act, gives us spiritual life, and the inevitable result is saving faith, and it is a gift, as Paul clearly says:

• "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:8-10]

...the Bible makes it clear that Faith cannot be one of those Works like Good works of charity or religious Works of keeping holy days or works like our attempts at sin avoidance.

With this, I wholeheartedly agree. But this understanding, good as it is, is contradicted by the belief that faith is our "gift," or contribution, to God that then moves Him to grant salvation to us.

God does act to "move" people by the conviction of His Holy Spirit and it is true that all who are saved are called by God.. So the calling of God is essential for the salvation of anyone.

I agree with this, also, essentially, but would rather state it thusly -- God purposes, and the Spirit acts according to the Father's will to work this new, spiritual heart in us, so that then we move ourselves to conviction, repentance, and belief. If we are Christians, we are just like Peter in that we are blessed (by God), because flesh and blood has not revealed this to us, but God the Father, Who is in heaven (Matthew 16:17). And this fits with what Paul says in Philippians 2, also (among other Bible passages), namely that it is God who works in us, so that we both will and work for His good pleasure (v.13).

But God also revealed through His prophets that human beings can and do resist the conviction of His Holy Spirit. Something calvinists and other like minded sects preach is impossible.

Yes and no. Yes with regard to works, but no with regard to salvation, which is what we're talking about. God's purposes cannot -- CANNOT -- be thwarted (Job 42:2). And, as Paul says, God's election of some to eternal life is clearly according to His purpose in individuals (Romans 9:11).

These are hard truths... not in the sense that they are hard to understand, but they can be really hard to accept. Paul anticipates this later in Romans 9 (verses 20-24):

• "...who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" even us whom he has called..?"

Grace and peace to you, Adstar.

[JehovahsWitness]

I disagree.. God can and does foreknow what an individual will choose by their own free will ...

As long as you agree God does not interfere with the free exercise of that free will we are on the same page and there's nothing to disagree with.

For example, yes, God knew (either from exercising his powers of forknoweledge or from an examination of his heart) that Pharoah of Egypt would not concede and let the Israelites free. The responsibility for his stubbornness however rests entirely with Pharaoh the individual, God did not exercise any pressure to make him stick to his stubbornness. He certainly didn't create him in his mother's womb to be stubborn.

That Jehovah (YHWH) told Moses beforehand how Pharoah reacts is essentially a none issue.Pharaohs destiny was fixed by Pharoah himself.

JW

[Adstar]

Again, thank you, Adstar, for bringing up Paul's use of the word 'foreknowledge' in Romans 8:29.

The common meaning of 'to foreknow' is to know something beforehand, in advance of its happening, so many believe God foresees who will believe, and that this foreknowledge is the basis of His predestination. But this cannot be right, for at least two reasons:

• A. In this sense God foreknows everybody and everything, whereas Paul is referring to a particular group ("...those whom He foreknew...").
  
  B. If God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, and this is contrary to Paul's whole emphasis, here, namely God's free initiative of grace.

I disagree with point B.

Well of course you do. But that's the problem with your understanding I'm trying to point out. One out of two is not bad, but it needs to be two out of two to be correct.

God clearly distinguishes Faith from Works...

Yes, He certainly does. But, Calvinist or not, regarding our salvation, what is very clearly Biblically true is, God has to make the first move, taking out the "heart of stone" we are all born with -- we are all naturally spiritually dead -- and replacing it with "heart of flesh" -- give us spiritual life. As Ezekiel says in chapter 36 of his prophecy and Paul refers to in Romans 9:

• "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."

...many Calvinists and others ( of like minded sects ) keep on saying that our Faith is a Works if it is not forced upon us by God.

No, I think you misunderstand. What is being said is, if it is said that faith is what we, in and of ourselves, what we contribute to our salvation -- thereby meriting salvation by mustering any level of saving faith in ourselves -- then faith is at least inadvertently made out to be a work of man, which is absolutely untrue according to God's Word. God, by His Spirit in His salvific act, gives us spiritual life, and the inevitable result is saving faith, and it is a gift, as Paul clearly says:

• "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:8-10]

...the Bible makes it clear that Faith cannot be one of those Works like Good works of charity or religious Works of keeping holy days or works like our attempts at sin avoidance.

With this, I wholeheartedly agree. But this understanding, good as it is, is contradicted by the belief that faith is our "gift," or contribution, to God that then moves Him to grant salvation to us.

God does act to "move" people by the conviction of His Holy Spirit and it is true that all who are saved are called by God.. So the calling of God is essential for the salvation of anyone.

I agree with this, also, essentially, but would rather state it thusly -- God purposes, and the Spirit acts according to the Father's will to work this new, spiritual heart in us, so that then we move ourselves to conviction, repentance, and belief. If we are Christians, we are just like Peter in that we are blessed (by God), because flesh and blood has not revealed this to us, but God the Father, Who is in heaven (Matthew 16:17). And this fits with what Paul says in Philippians 2, also (among other Bible passages), namely that it is God who works in us, so that we both will and work for His good pleasure (v.13).

But God also revealed through His prophets that human beings can and do resist the conviction of His Holy Spirit. Something calvinists and other like minded sects preach is impossible.

Yes and no. Yes with regard to works, but no with regard to salvation, which is what we're talking about. God's purposes cannot -- CANNOT -- be thwarted (Job 42:2). And, as Paul says, God's election of some to eternal life is clearly according to His purpose in individuals (Romans 9:11).

These are hard truths... not in the sense that they are hard to understand, but they can be really hard to accept. Paul anticipates this later in Romans 9 (verses 20-24):

• "...who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" even us whom he has called..?"

Grace and peace to you, Adstar.

And grace and peace to you..

In my experience from being in religious based forums and chat rooms for near on 20 years i have never seen a Calvinist let go of the Calvinism.. And i don't expect you to either.. Such is life..

[Adstar]

I disagree.. God can and does foreknow what an individual will choose by their own free will ...

As long as you agree God does not interfere with the free exercise of that free will we are on the same page and there's nothing to disagree with.

For example, yes, God knew (either from exercising his powers of forknoweledge or from an examination of his heart) that Pharoah of Egypt would not concede and let the Israelites free. The responsibility for his stubbornness however rests entirely with Pharaoh the individual, God did not exercise any pressure to make him stick to his stubbornness. He certainly didn't create him in his mother's womb to be stubborn.

That Jehovah (YHWH) told Moses beforehand how Pharoah reacts is essentially a none issue.Pharaohs destiny was fixed by Pharoah himself.

JW

I disagree with your assessment of the incident in the exodus and Pharaoh.. God sent Moses twice to pharaoh to express the will of God to set His people free.. On the first two occasions we read that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and resisted the will of God twice.. But after these two occasions God intervened and caused Pharaoh's heart to remain hardened so that the latter great miracles / signs could all happen.. These signs i believe where to make it clear to the Hebrews and the Egyptians alike that it was the God of Abraham who was liberating the Hebrew people from Egypt and it was not Moses and Aaron who where achieving the result..

Yes Pharaoh was not created to be mind controlled automation having no free will.. He resisted God twice of his own free will.. But after He resisted God twice then God chose to take control over his mind to use pharaoh as a vessel of wrath..

Even in the New Testament we read a prophecy of the end times when people who refuse to embrace the love of the truth of the gospel so that they might be saved are given over to delusions and deceptions so that they will believe the lying signs and wonders that will deceive the world in the final great deception of satan..

We read in context::

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

So by their own free will they will reject the Gospel love of the truth through which they would have been saved.. But knowing that they are doomed God will send them strong delusions so that they will believe the great deception of the Anti-christ who will be doing miracles by the power of satan..

In the end everyone serves God.. Some as vessels of grace and others as vessels of wrath.. But the choice is ours in whom we shall trust..

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]


It is a long question and I dont think Adstar is speaking about predestination but of foreknowledge which isn't the same thing. Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good. I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

JW

So many don't know the difference between foreknowledge and being predestined. I guess the right short question would be: When does the Almighty know when a wicked act was going to be carried out?

Its math. If you create an equation with variables, you must know anything that will fit it can be inserted.

[PinSeeker]

In my experience from being in religious based forums and chat rooms for near on 20 years i have never seen a Calvinist let go of the Calvinism.. And i don't expect you to either.. Such is life..

Well, that's not surprising. I gotcha; nolo contendere... Suit yourself.

But again, regardless of any label, right is right. God's Word is what it is, and some can't bring themselves to fully embrace it. I hope that will not always be the case for you (or others here).

Grace and peace to you, Adstar.