Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]

Any religion that does not know the TRUTH (There can only be one truth) are determined as being a part of Christendom, which is all false religion.

If you go to Revelation you can read about the harlot that rides upon the back of the beast...and if you give proper thought to that part you will understand that it is religion that has ridden on the back of world governments. Religions get great amounts of money from the government for schools (Often this money is siphoned off for other purposes) but the government keep giving. There is no tax paid by religious organizations, there is no land tax paid for the church sites.

These ones are the harlot, or Christendom, all false religion that the beast will soon turn upon and devour, stripping her of all her assets and making her a desolation.

Just as all other Biblical prophecies have come true, so to will this one along with more that is described in Revelation.

[Zzyzx]

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Any religion that does not know the TRUTH (There can only be one truth) are determined as being a part of Christendom, which is all false religion.

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[hoghead1]

[Replying to marakorpa]

That's on of the main reasons I have trouble with the whole Watchtower ideology. It goes on the arrogant assumption that it and it alone is the only one true religion. All other religions, most especially Judaism and Christianity, are all totally false and corrupt, their adherents but children of the Devil. That further supports my position that it is an anti-Semitic organization, as it continually, and most especially, condemns the Jews as all lost souls, unless, of course, they wise up and convert to the Watchtower way of thinking. It's just too much like racism, is a kind of racism. We, the Society, and we alone, are the mater race, the saved ones, so that everyone else is going to have God throw them right down the proverbial drain.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 8 by arian]


Just one question from your large manuscript: What was the beginning that is mentioned in John1:1.

I can't be the beginning of God as He has no beginning. It can't be the beginning of the worlds population, or the beginning of the creation of the world as the 'word' was with God when that happened and all things were created fro him and through him.

So, tell me what it was the beginning of please.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

If you open discussion on any religion, and you use false statements and accusations, does that religion or a member of that religion have a right to defend that comment to the fullest.

The questions is asked, and it is also put out by those that have no idea, on what the JWs believe.
I have done that and it seems to offend some, or at least one.

If I cannot say what the "dogma" of the JWs is, truthfully, what purpose is this forum? I still do not know what was offensive.

I would suggest that if you wish to talk about JWs and what they believe don't come out with some ridiculous statement that is not supported and only designed to irritate.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 331 by hoghead1]

You fail to see that every religion claims that they are the mater race (sic) and that does not seem to matter to you at all. I can only take your posts as being antagonistic only and they have no real debate of the JW religion.

[marakorpa]

[Replying to post 18 by Peds nurse]

You hit on the very reason why there are so many religions in the world, the number is around 40,000 religions that call themselves Christian and even 242 different catholic denominations, this does not count the other non-Christian religions of which there are millions of members.

What was Adam saying when he decided to eat of the fruit? What thought had Satan put into his head?
It is clear to me and many others that Adam though he could now rule the world, he had this new found power that gave him the ability to set up his own world government, and everything would be good.

So, with the help of Satan mankind has set up many differing and conflicting powers, mainly with the idea of ruling the world. A lot of the powers were world powers, but they were defeated by larger world powers and do it went on.

Satan is the King of the world, and he rules all the kingdoms of the world, this was proved when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if Jesus did an act of obeisance to him, Satan.

It is also in Satan's best interest to have as many differing, and arguing religions, in the world. His reason is to keep the truth away from mankind, and in these last days he is putting more and more heat on the haters of the truth causing them to attack any religion that is close to the truth.

It is easy to determine if your beliefs are that of a true Christian, just compare what the Bible says a Christian must do and not do, and then compare what you are doing.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Jehovah's Witnesses theology is NOT based on "allegience to the organization." We support the organization, but our theology is based on allegience to Christ. We believe whole-heartedly that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Ok, so just for the record, I'd like you to EXPLICITLY state;

"A person living today does NOT have to belong to the Watch Tower & Tract Society or become a Jehovah's Witness in order to be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. Being a Jehovah's Witness is not a requirement for salvation".

Can you do that?

I personally believe that many people will be spared at Armageddon because they didn't know or understand the truth about God. People who never were a "part of the organization." They will be taught about Jehovah and Jesus during the Thousand-Year Reign, and everyone on Earth will be subjects of their Kingdom, if they, in the end, choose to accept Jehovah as the universal Sovereign.

Sure, you can believe that...but that is NOT what the Bible says. The Bible does not state what will happen during the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ...so any beliefs in that regard is pure speculation...and pure speculation should not constitute Biblical Doctrine.

After the Thousand-Year Reign, Jesus "hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all rule and authority and power [of men]. For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him.When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God [the Father] may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15:24-28, NASB, brackets mine)

Notice the above scripture says nothing about second chances. More Red Herring fillers.

[For_The_Kingdom]

You just won't take timothy's clear word, will you.

No. But I will take Jesus' word for it, though. Jehovah's Witnesses state that they are/have the Truth...but Jesus said that he is the truth...and I am taking Jesus' word for it.

I'm afraid you are, at this time, one of those folks that is just not humble ("meek," teachable).

I am afraid that I will go by what Jesus say, not what Jehovah's Witnesses say.

QUESTION: What is wrong with timothy's link? It clears up any confusion about people's salvation, and leaves the final judgments to Jesus. How is it based on "falsehoods"?

Again, red herrings and straw mans. No one said anything about the "judgements of Jesus". I simply asked can a person not be a Jehovah's Witness and STILL be covered by the blood of Christ.

Timothy gave a link where it talks about people of the past who "didn't know about Jesus" (or whatever), where I AGREED with him that no one will be held accountable for what they don't or didn't know.

The article then moved to stuff about the false Biblical doctrine of second chances which is something that has no scriptural basis whatsoever...and it also talks about the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous, which has NOTHING to do with the question that I asked about salvation.

If you have any problems with the context of my posts to Timothy regarding these issues, then address the actual post that I made...address the context of what I said...address it specifically, instead of these general sweeps that you people seem to be so accustomed of doing.

FINAL THOUGHT: You are throwing into the discussion the old tired accusation that JWs have been wrong in their "prophecies,"

They have been.

and therefore they must be "false prophets."

They must be.

A lot can be and has been said to clear up any misunderstanding about that. I will not go into detail now, but the basic points are:

(1) The WTS does not claim to be a "prophet."

Then they shouldn't have been proclaiming prophecies, should they?

A prophet is someone who gets a message directly from God. The WTS does not claim to get any message directly from God.

They may not make these claims today, but they did in the past. Notice you said that the WTS does not...notice you didn't say that the WTS did not, or NEVER claimed to be a prophet.

The fact of the matter is, they DID. And please don't make me post links to the various website at which those false prophecies and quotes are EXPOSED, with the sources coming STRAIGHT from Watch Tower literature so anyone can go and look it up for his/her self.

The men of the WTS pray for direction and then consult the Bible. They then present their understanding of the Scriptures they consulted. The fact that they misunderstood what the Scriptures seemed to be saying about the time for going to heaven (1914) or the end of the world alienated from God (1975), doesn't make them "false prophets."

Um, yes it does make them false prophets. They used the Bible as their guide, which is the word of God, to falsely predict the end of the world...they gave specific years that this would occur (as you mention above), and their prediction simply did not come true.

This false information came from the HEAD of the organization...straight from the GOVERNING BODY...the HEAD of the snake...and it simply did not come true.

The Catholic Church and the Methodists' founders are two groups that predicted the end of the world and got it wrong, yet who criticizes them for it?

I am not a member of the Catholic or Methodist Church....and they can get it too.

(2) The WTS was interested in figuring out when the Great Tribulation would hit.

I am, too. I just don't go around saying "The Great Tribulation will occur on x, y date".

So many others have wondered about this also. The brothers should, perhaps, have not speculated, and they have since declared that no one should try to figure it out. They were the only ones, however, that got it right about "the appointed times of the nations " being fulfilled in 1914. That was what was referred to by the prophet Daniel and spoken of again by Jesus at Luke 21:24 ("the times of the Gentiles," KJV). Who else even knows what that is referring to? Biblical chronology, carefully studied, pointed to 1914 as the year for God's Kingdom to once again turn its attention to the Earth. (Daniel 4:16,25; see the excellent book Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy by the WTS, or go to the website www.jw.org .) The brothers were relaying to the public what they thought was the message FROM a prophet telling the time for the end of the system, but that message, in actuality, only referred to the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled.

They were also the only ones at that time who recognized that 1975 marked the 6,000th year since Adam's creation. That is why they said that it would LIKELY be the end of the age. They simply forgot that EVE'S creation should be added into the mix, and the Bible didn't indicate when SHE was created.

So you see, when really explored, the "false prophecies" as you call them, are not that at all, and the WTS's innocent conjecturing actually was based on Scriptural indications, though not completely understood by them.

At this point you are probably quoting stuff from Watch Tower literature...some stuff about them justifying why the predictions were false and or why it wasn't false in the first place.

Everyone can see that the WTS is a false, failed cult...except the Witnesses themselves.

[For_The_Kingdom]

The Catholics reckon you have to be a catholic before you can go to heaven.....Seems to be no problem

All other religions reckon that they are the only ones tha tare really Christians....Seems to be no problem.

Buddhists, Muslims, Shinto,all the ones under Indrea all say they are the only ones that offer salvation...Seems to be no problems.

Ok, let me just EXPLICITLY state, for the record: ANY WHO CLAIMS THAT THEIR CULT, RELIGION, OR DENOMINATION is the ONLY way to heaven, they are wrong. Jesus is the ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN.

That better?

The JWs do not say that you must give abeyance to the organization

You guys are playing word games. Of course, they know that people have free will and no one is forcing anyone to do anything....but that AIN'T THE POINT. The point is, for salvation, is one required to become a Jehovah's Witness in order for salvation.

You know how, in the Watch Tower mags, you have those illustrations of all those people enjoying eternal bliss on "paradise earth"? Well, is there anyone in those illustrations that are enjoying this bliss, WITHOUT being or having been a Jehovah's Witness?

That is the question.

and they accept Jesus more so than most religions that make him a part of an impossible trinity. The Jehovah Witnesses are just that, they give witness to Jehovah's purpose and pray to him through his only begotten son Jesus Christ...Your scripture covers this.

Pray to Jehovah through Jesus? Why? Stephen prayed directly to Jesus (Acts 7:59). But I don't expect your NWT to render it that way...but if you look at every other Biblical translation BESIDES the NWT, that is how it is rendered.

SMH.