Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[marco]

Your post presented me with a number of unqualified and contradictory claims. You said, "It is incorrect to take conclusions that are correct in our world and apply them to the infinite." (A claim I have failed to see you amply support yet, by the way.) Well, but that is precisely what you are doing here, in making your above claim. Your whole claim is nothing but the finite claim of a finite being about the infinite and therefore self-contradictory.

Hoghead, I accept that mathematics is not your forte, and so you "fail to see" my ample support. Basically, and once again, I illustrated using infinite series that are conditionally convergent in which the application of a logical process, namely changing the order of terms to sum them, produces results at variance with our intuition. This warns us about making claims about areas beyond our finite experience. To me that is clear. That you fail to understand the explanation is hardly my fault.

Well, but we can't move out of our finite world, we can't cease and desist being human, finite beings.

Did you really understand my statement to mean physical movement from the finite? I meant when we move our discussion from....

And how is it that the infinite, whichever you mean by that term, can be demonstrated, but not God? Isn't God infinite?

Do you know God? Infinity is demonstrated simply by taking the sequence 1,2,3,... and supposing we reach a finite end K, say. But we can add 1 to this figure so K is not the end. Whenever we suppose we have an end it is always possible to add another 1. So demonstrating infinity is rather like adding 1 and 1.

Now take God. Is God sheep-like or like molten rock? It is ludicrous to ascribe adjectives to this notional being as if he existed in the first place. You are simply assuming and building assumptions on your own assumptions. It has nothing to do with taking God in some discredited way. You have simply given him new clothes.

But you are right - we have moved from the initial discussion on whether God is, as the hymn says, one" who changes not." It depends on which God is worshipped and which attributes humans have given him. The Biblical God seems to enjoy all the human traits of changeability in that he changes plans on a whim.

[jcforever]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

No. Man created in the image of God can only experience living according to a planned program that can only be changed by the unknown source who created it.

Man and God just learned last December of what Man and God are together as one thing called the tree of life. Within the tree of life is an ongoing conversion of our Creator's thoughts into what we believe are real people living on a real earth that is continuously changing. So it appears that God is changing his mind when in reality, it's the thoughts that enter a man's mind that is changing, not the program that was created for us to experience life in.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 327 by dio9]

What is your case that God is wholly immutable, however? The Bible sure doesn't claim that. In over 100 passages, the Bible attributes change to God. Indeed, I can't se how God could finish the sentence if he can't change. Just think of teh change you go through in writing a single sentence.

The closest I can come make a case is to say God is spirit. I don't think spirit changes.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 333 by dio9]



[center]Explaining a mystery with another mystery.[/center]

What is your case that God is wholly immutable, however? The Bible sure doesn't claim that. In over 100 passages, the Bible attributes change to God. Indeed, I can't se how God could finish the sentence if he can't change. Just think of teh change you go through in writing a single sentence.

The closest I can come make a case is to say God is spirit. I don't think spirit changes.

Because we all know about spirits?
I don't.

I don't have a CLUE what that is, or if any of them CHANGE or not.
But.. you seem to know about the characteristics of "spirits".

You answered the question about God to a question about spirits.. you say that God doesn't change because God's a spirit and spirits don't change. Ok.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  
  Can you tell us how you figure that SPIRITS can't change?
  
  

____________

[dio9]

PS. I must say Jesus taught life is eternal. If we believe in him and are good boys and girls. But the kingdom of heaven is not distinct from this world. Living beings come and go but the eternal life force , the divine principle in each individual and being does not come and go. That divine principle which abides in and is each individual is always here , it only appears to go.

I understand this concept of the Lotus Sutra from my Christian perspective to mean God is always here as that divine principle abiding ( as Buddha would say) unchanging in each of us as we come and go like blossoms on a pond.

That's just it , the change is what's unchanging .

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 335 by dio9]

Yes, but that misses my point about God changing. Any true personality is a synthesis of both consistency and change. it just depends upon which aspects you are talking about. The fact that there is an absolute or immutable side to God, meaning there are certain things God always does, such as being always loving, empathic, seeking beauty, omnipresent, all that does not negate there is still change taking place in God. God in the concrete is continually changing, because God is continually affected, deeply moved, by all that happens. You and I can think of ourselves as having an absolute and also relative nature. I am a lifelong train buff, loved trains since I was a kid (absolute nature). However, now that I have had some years of real, hands-on experience with an actual steam locomotive, I am a much different train buff than I was at 20 (relative nature).

The problem with classical theism is that it denied any changing attributes of God whatsoever, rendering God aloof and indifferent to the world, plus contradicting Scripture, which does present God as changing.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 333 by dio9]

Oh, really? Why not?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 335 by dio9]




[center]Logical contradictions like that are meaningless[/center]

That's just it , the change is what's unchanging .

The bachelor who is married.
The square that is round.

The very up that is very down.
That logic is not sound.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 331 by marco]



[center]Blaming the other guy.. a quite Trumpian thing to do[/center]

To me that is clear. That you fail to understand the explanation is hardly my fault.

It's not a big stretch of the imagination to think that your explanation is clear to you.

IF you are trying to communicate an idea and it doesn't get understood, that's YOUR fault.

You are the one with the need to communicate it.
Do it well, or your project FAILS.


We should not blame others for our own failure.
If you have something to teach, teach it.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 335 by dio9]

Yes, but that misses my point about God changing. Any true personality is a synthesis of both consistency and change. it just depends upon which aspects you are talking about. The fact that there is an absolute or immutable side to God, meaning there are certain things God always does, such as being always loving, empathic, seeking beauty, omnipresent, all that does not negate there is still change taking place in God. God in the concrete is continually changing, because God is continually affected, deeply moved, by all that happens. You and I can think of ourselves as having an absolute and also relative nature. I am a lifelong train buff, loved trains since I was a kid (absolute nature). However, now that I have had some years of real, hands-on experience with an actual steam locomotive, I am a much different train buff than I was at 20 (relative nature).

The problem with classical theism is that it denied any changing attributes of God whatsoever, rendering God aloof and indifferent to the world, plus contradicting Scripture, which does present God as changing.

Yes and all that doesn't change , the unchanging is what's happening , this is it. God is not aloof to what's happening , the infinitely changing universe is not going to change.

Maybe I've been reading too much Zen but I'm trying to say , the changing is within the unchanging, the unchanging is transcendent, the divine principle if you will. Even though it is changing in so many ways , electrons will always be attracted to and fly around protons. This is not going to change.