Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

"Some versus are to be taken literally some verses are not. Context and the internal harmony of the bible message is what will dictate."

Yes, that is very much what my faith believes...

That's good, it's nice to find common ground.

If read as a whole I believe the correct Biblical understanding is that this Earthly planet is not the heaven that awaits us.

Well I can agree that "this earthly planet" is not "heaven"; heaven is heaven and the earth is the earth. Two entirely different things. As for which destiny "awaits" the faithful that would depend on which faithful. For many millions their reward will be eternal life on this our literal planet earth (restored to top condition). For others it will be eternity with God as spirits in heaven. If you read the bible "as a whole" you will see that both destinies are presented in scripture.

Many religions pick and choose passages they wish to highlight and ones they wish to ignore.

This is true which is why I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses because we neither dismiss scriptures as "uninspired" or "the ideas of men and therefore not to be believed" nor do we ignore them. When one takes a holistic approach and seeks internal harmony in scripture the truth can be found.


JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]


remains or abides forever does not imply external existence for the planet. The Hebrew word rendered forever simply means a long period of time. The Hebrew phrase forever often signifies a periodical perpetuity, a long indefinite time, not an infinite. The same word is used in reference to other things which are not eternal in duration . . .

the land promise (Genesis ), circumcision (17:13), the Passover feast (Ex. 12:14), the priesthood of Aaron (Ex. 29:9), the Sabbath Day (Ex. 31:16-17). The word "forever" was rightly used of such things, because all these things lasted during the entire age for which they were designed. The earth is the permanent ground or scene on which all generations will come and go. This is the permanent stage for man"s physical history. But one day that stage will be removed (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:11)


https://www.studylight.org/commentary/e ... s/1-4.html

Why would King Solomon say that the earth abides for an indefinite period of time---which would be, as you say, a long period of time---if the earth would be literally destroyed in a mere 3 or 4 thousand years from when he lived? I don't think so. What I explained in my last post stands. It makes the most sense, as well as harmonizing with all scripture. So....some things are surely not eternal that are labeled "forever" in the Scriptures (like Jesus' pre-human existence), but many things are. If you examine closely the words of Peter, for example, you will see that the talk of a new heavens and new earth is poetic license. Why would Jehovah destroy the heavens and make it all over again? Absurd. It is just as absurd to think that He will destroy this planet and make it over again. There is no need. This planet is perfectly fine. It just needs tending to, to help it to get back to how it was intended to be.

The "stage" will not be "removed." God intended humans to live on the earth, and that is where we WILL live forever. He will see to it that His original purpose is fulfilled.

"And God proceeded to create the man in his image...; male and female he created them. Further, God blessed them and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.'" (Genesis 1:27,28)

"And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it." (Genesis 2:15)

"For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth...He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it to be inhabited: 'I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.'" (Isaiah 45:18)

"As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, but the earth he has given to the sons of men." (Psalm 115:16)



Those scriptures encompass His original purpose, and it has not changed.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

"Some versus are to be taken literally some verses are not. Context and the internal harmony of the bible message is what will dictate."

Yes, that is very much what my faith believes and which is why I disagree greatly with the JW interpretation. If read as a whole I believe the correct Biblical understanding is that this Earthly planet is not the heaven that awaits us.

Many religions pick and choose passages they wish to highlight and ones they wish to ignore. And it certainly could be argued that two very sincere, intelligent individuals could both read the very same thing and have two very different understandings about what is meant, which is why Jesus left us His Church -- to safeguard Sacred Scripture and make sure we are getting it right.

Exactly. He is guiding his Church to spread his Father Jehovah's purposes throughout the entire earth, and to warn everyone of what will happen if they don't want Him to be King (Sovereign of the universe). He also makes it clear how Jehovah's purpose for the earth has not changed, and, as was explained in JW's post, it encompasses the eternal paradise on Earth that humans will enjoy to the full.

[RightReason]

Onewithhim and JW, I appreciate your passion and I agree that JW's and the Catholic Church have some common ground we can share, but I am afraid it can be shown that the JW's start with some self created theology and build from there.

BTW, who gave you the Bible? It did not fall from the sky. The Bible was handed down from my Church. But your founder didn't like it exactly how it was, so made a few changes and attempted to put his own translation on it. Once that is done, the group has now created their own theology -- a part from Christ's Church and really can't then be guaranteed they are getting it right.

I encourage you both to go back to the beginning, study Church history. Study the writings of the early Fathers (the First Church established by Jesus Christ Himself) and seek Truth.

[JehovahsWitness]

It can be shown that the JW's start with some self created theology and build from there.

That has yet to be demonstrated, at least in this thread. You have been presented with much scriptural evidence that the idea of a literal planet enduring forever most definitely has a basis in the bible, and from what I can see you have yet to present any counter-argument offering alternative readings. There were eleven scriptures offered here in support of our reading of Ecclesiastes 1:4, as yet I do not see any rebuttal of the rational. If you feel inclined to address each of the eleven scriptures, feel free but in the absence of that it is more than reasonable your comment above be rejected as without foundation.

I'll ignore the rest of your post since it seems to me to be an attempt o "switch and bait" to detract from the point under discussion.

Respect,

JW

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

That has yet to be demonstrated, at least in this thread. You have been presented with much scriptural evidence that the idea of a literal planet enduring forever most definitely has a basis in the bible, and from what I can see you have yet to present any counter-argument offering alternative readings to the scritpures features.

I have posted why your interpretation of Scripture is lacking. I will also post a long excerpt from a link because these kinds of topics are impossible to respond to by citing a few Scripture passages. The Bible needs to be read as a whole, it also matters ones starting point and unfortunately motive can come into play as well -- in what one is trying to set out to prove or demonstrate and I contend that the JWs come up with some of the theology they do to cover previous mistakes in interpretations theyve made (kind of the what a tangled web we weave thing). Anyway, I think the JW belief in a literal planet earth enduring is based on what misunderstanding after another, a little quote mining, and an overall misunderstanding of the nature of God.


But what is that destiny for the ones chosen to be saved? The Watchtower cites Scriptural passages which they feel imply that the earth will last forever, and that the righteous will always inhabit it. However, one must be careful to read the quoted passages in context. Often they refer to the return of the Jews from the captivity of Babylon and Egypt. Other times, as in Psalms 67 and 72, they refer to blessings bestowed upon the king. In contrast, the Bible proclaims that His Kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36). Neither will ours be.

What makes us Christians is our belief that God became Man. He only lived among us for a short time, after which He died to pay the ransom for our sins. This is a major point of contention with Jehovah's Witnesses who proclaim that Jesus is none other than Michael the Archangel. This will be discussed later in the book. However, this point is particularly relevant when interpreting Revelation 21: 3, 4. "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; the first heaven and the first earth had disappeared now, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as bride dressed for her husband. Then I heard a loud voice call from the throne, 'Look here God lives among human beings. He will make his home among them; they will be his people, and he will be their God, God-with-them. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there will be no more death, and no more mourning or sadness or pain. The world of the past has gone' (Rev 21:1-4)."

The Watchtower chooses to interpret the above passage as a reference to a renewed earth where there will be no death or sadness, and God will live among them. However, there are several problems with such an interpretation. First, cross reference this passage to Matthew's account of the nativity (Mt 1:23). Here, Immanuel is the name used to describe the child Jesus, meaning God-with-us. Surely in Jesus, God does live among human beings. Second, the holy city, the new Jerusalem, is a metaphor used by Jews and early Christians to describe heaven. This is particularly evident in an account given in the letter to the Hebrews (Hb 11:8-16). In this account, Abraham's descendants, which are "as numerous as the stars" are looking forward to "their heavenly homeland" since God has "founded the city for them." They recognize that they are "strangers and nomads on earth."

The story of Abraham and his descendants is also relevant to the question of time, which was discussed above. We know that salvation only comes through Christ Jesus as we are reminded in the famous passage of John 3:16. How then could God have founded the city of heaven for them unless Christ died for our sins for all time. For an infinite God this is possible; for one constrained by time, only those alive after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ can be saved, as only they will know who he is. Yet this is what the Watchtower proposes. Before Christ, nobody could even hope for a "heavenly homeland." As evidence, they point to John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven." Yet what is the context in which he says this? After Jesus describes how one must be "born again" through baptism before he can enter the kingdom of God, Nicodemus asks, "How is that possible?" (Jn. 3:9). In reply, Jesus notes, "In all truth I tell you, we only speak about what we know and witness only to what we have seen and yet you people reject our evidence. If you do not believe me when I speak about earthly things, how will you believe me when I speak about heavenly things?" (Jn. 3:11,12). The point he is making here is not that nobody has ever gone to heaven, but that among those living, nobody has seen heaven, and therefore nobody, Nicodemus included, can understand it.

Quoting Saint Gregory the Great, Saint Francis de Sales supplements Jesus' point with the following parable: "Picture a pregnant woman who is put into prison, where she remains until the time of her delivery. She even gives birth there and is then condemned to pass the remainder of her life in the dungeon and to bring up her child there. As he grows older his mother desires to give him some idea of things in the outside world, for having lived only in continual darkness he has no idea of the light of the sun, the beauty of the stars, or the loveliness of nature. Since the mother wants to teach him all these things, they lower a lamp or a lighted candle to her. With this she attempts to make him conceive, as best she can, the beauty of a bright day. She tells him: 'The sun and the stars are made like this and spread out a great light.' It is all in vain, for the child, having had no experience of the light of which his mother speaks, cannot understand." Even though Abraham and his descendents could not understand heaven, heaven was still their hope. They trusted their Lord (Ps. 22:4) and His promise was their hope, just as the child in Gregory's parable trusted his mother and hoped that one day he would see the light of day, green flowing hills, and towering forests.

Continuing on, the Watchtower proclaims that the earth was made for man, and that the earth will last forever, even though Paul reminds the Philippians that "they will be lost...since their minds are set on earthly things. But our homeland is in heaven...(Phil 3:19-20)." Saint Luke also reminds us that when Christ comes again, "no one on the housetop, with his possessions in the house must come down to collect them...Remember Lot's wife (Lk 17:31-32)." Certainly there is greater glory in the presence of God in His heavenly kingdom than can ever be attained through all the riches of the world. Over and over, scripture tells us to set our eyes on God who has prepared the city of heaven, the new Jerusalem, for a multitude as numerous as the stars in heaven (cf. Hb 11:12). Those who set their eyes on the riches of this world will only find death. Of course Witnesses will deny that they are coveting the things of this world. The transformed earth will be vastly different from the one of today, since there will be no hoarding or greed. In fact, what they are describing is a perfect socialist utopia. In developing countries, the ranks of the Jehovah's Witnesses are swelling in alarming numbers. The poor of those countries are buying into a dream of a life that they cannot hope to attain in their present state. They are told that in the last days when the angels of God come to execute His judgement, only Witnesses will survive. Afterwards, they will be free to take what is left behind from wealthy Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, and others, who will not survive the final judgement. In the meantime, these hard working peasants will send what little they have to support the multimillion dollar publishing empire which the Watchtower has established in Brooklyn, New York.

Watchtower books are filled with beautiful colour illustrations of the paradise on earth. Happy smiling faces are waiting to greet those wanting to convert. "Look how healthy and youthful they appear! If you were told that these people had already lived thousands of years, would you believe it?," exclaims the Watchtower. To back up their claims about this, yet undiscovered, fountain of youth, they cite Job 33:25. There Elihu, Job's young and proud friend, tells Job that "his flesh will recover it's childhood freshness, he will return to the days of his youth." If you recall the story of Job, you will remember that Job had lost all his family and his wealth when God decided to prove Job's faith. In his despair, Job was counseled by four sages. The last and youngest to speak was Elihu. We know that Elihu cannot be trusted for God declares, "Who is this, obscuring my intentions with his ignorant words? (Job 38:2)" When challenged on this, the Witnesses will respond that God was only referring to the other three sages. Yet, it is not until chapter 42 that the other three are rebuked (Job 42:7-9). Still, they will maintain that Elihu was wise and inspired by God. But this argument doesn't wash. First, in the same chapter quoted by the Watchtower, Elihu announces, "keep quiet, and I will teach you wisdom (Job 33:33)." Certainly Elihu was not only proud, but arrogant to declare himself as such in the presence of God's favoured servant Job. Doesn't Saint Matthew tell us that "Anyone who raises himself up will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be raised up (Mt 23:12)." After all, "God opposes the proud, but he accords his favour to the humble (Jas 4:6)." As further evidence of his pride, Elihu also declares, "I guarantee, nothing I shall say will be untrue, you have a man of sound learning here (Job 36:4)."

What was lost by Adam's sin was the garden of Eden. The Watchtower promises that this state will be restored under Jesus Christ and the faithful of Jehovah will be permitted to reside in this paradise on earth. As evidence they cite Luke 23:43. Remember that Christ is speaking with a thief who, near death, sincerely professes his faith in our Lord. Jesus then "answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.'" In the Watchtower's New World Translation (NWT), the comma is shifted so that it falls after today. "Truly I tell you today,..." it reads, thus permitting an interpretation where the good thief will be resurrected at Armageddon and live with Jesus in his earthly paradise. The thief will not be in paradise today. Jesus is telling him "today," that he will live in a paradise on earth some thousands of years into the future. This goes back to the conception of time and how man measures the seasons in a way far different from God, as we discussed earlier. But all this is beside the point. Paradise is referred to elsewhere in the New Testament. For example, Paul describes a vision in a letter to the people of Corinth. "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago"still in the body? I do not know; or out of the body? I do not know"God knows"was caught up right into the third heaven. And I know that this man"still in the body?"or outside the body? I do not know, God knows"was caught up into Paradise (2 Cor 12:2-4)." Here, Paradise is equated to the third heaven.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/witwatch.htm

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 375 by JehovahsWitness]

More counter argument to JW theory . . .

The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of Gods blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/more-stu ... -witnesses

[onewithhim]

Onewithhim and JW, I appreciate your passion and I agree that JW's and the Catholic Church have some common ground we can share, but I am afraid it can be shown that the JW's start with some self created theology and build from there.

BTW, who gave you the Bible? It did not fall from the sky. The Bible was handed down from my Church. But your founder didn't like it exactly how it was, so made a few changes and attempted to put his own translation on it. Once that is done, the group has now created their own theology -- a part from Christ's Church and really can't then be guaranteed they are getting it right.

I encourage you both to go back to the beginning, study Church history. Study the writings of the early Fathers (the First Church established by Jesus Christ Himself) and seek Truth.

What are you talking about? Charles Taze Russell didn't change the Bible or put his own translation on it. For almost 100 years he, and then those that followed him, used the King James Version and the American Standard Bible. They also appreciated Benjamin Wilson's translation of John 1:1, in The Emphatic Diaglott. Russell didn't make up anything.

We do "go back to the beginning" and honor the writings of the EARLIEST church fathers....not the "fathers" of the church that started manipulating the Scriptures from the late 1st century onward. The truth is being proclaimed throughout the world to all the nations, by Jesus Christ's true followers. (Matt.24:14)

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

What are you talking about? Charles Taze Russell didn't change the Bible or put his own translation on it. For almost 100 years he, and then those that followed him, used the King James Version and the American Standard Bible. They also appreciated Benjamin Wilson's translation of John 1:1, in The Emphatic Diaglott. Russell didn't make up anything.

You understand that the King James Bible too was taken from my Church who gave the world Sacred Scripture. Of course the King James Bible was also altered (The word 'alone' was added to the verse, "we are saved by justification". The author wanted to emphasize his take that we are saved by justification ALONE so he felt compelled to take it upon himself to change Sacred Scripture) , even though the Bible clearly warns against doing so, but as usual splinter groups that left the original Church to start their own find the need to tweak the Bible to their liking in order to fit their created theology. Your guy, Charles Taze then took that version and made his own changes " more tweaking.

The New World Translation (NWT), the JWs own Bible version, was created between 1950-61 in several parts, beginning with New Testament (NT). The translation was made by an "anonymous" committee, which transliterated and altered passages that were problematic for earlier JWs. Nathan Knorr, Fred Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel were later identified as the men that created the text, which is used by no other sect. Franz studied non-biblical Greek for two years, and taught himself Hebrew. The rest had no formal training in any biblical language. The text of the NWT is more of a transliteration to fit theological presumptions than it is a true translation. This can be seen in key verses that the WTS changed in order to fit its doctrines.

To undermine the divinity of Christ in John 1:1, the NWT reads, " . . . the word was a god." Non-JW Greek scholars call this "a shocking mistranslation," "incorrect," "monstrous," and "evidence of abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar." Furthermore, Col. 1:15-17 has been changed to "... by means of him all [other] things were created." If the text were left as the original Greek reads, it would clearly state that Jesus created all things. However, the WTS cannot afford to say that anyone but Jehovah created all things, so it inserted the word "other" four times into the text.

The 1950, 1961, and 1970 editions of the NWT said that Jesus was to be worshipped (Heb. 1:6), but the WTS changed the NWT so that later editions would support its doctrines. The translators now decided to render the Greek word for "worship" (proskuneo) as "do obeisance" every time it is applied to Jesus, but as "worship" when modifying Jehovah. If the translators were consistent, then Jesus would be given the worship due to God in Matthew. 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, and Hebrews 1:6.

At the time of the Last Supper, there were over three dozen Aramaic words to say "this means," "represents," or "signifies," but Jesus used none of them in his statement, "This is my body." Since the WTS denies the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, they have taken the liberty to change our Lords words to "This means my body" in Matthew 26:26.

The NWT also translates the Greek word kurios ("Lord") as "Jehovah" dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word "Jehovah" is never used by any NT author. It should also be asked why the NWT does not translate kurios as "Jehovah" in Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Philippians 2:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and Revelation 22:21. If it did translate kyrios consistently, then Jesus would be Jehovah!

https://www.catholic.com/tract/stumpers ... -witnesses

We do "go back to the beginning" and honor the writings of the EARLIEST church fathers....not the "fathers" of the church that started manipulating the Scriptures from the late 1st century onward.

Well then you must notice the irony of abandoning that first Church (that Christ promised to remain with and guide her in all truth) and hook up with Charles Taze Russell in the 1870s believing our Lord does not keep His promises and it took the insight of Russell to enlighten everyone about the truth 8 centuries later? That doesnt sound like the beginning to me.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 377 by RightReason]

I will remind you that the scripture under discussion is Ecclesiastes 1:4 the arguementation being that it was in fact referring to the literal planet in contrast to refering figuratively to humanity. The supporting evidence for the correct application of the the notion of "eternal" in connection to the planet earth being: Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, Proverbs 2:21, 22.

I see not a single reference any of the above passages in your wall of text indeed you don't seem to be dealing with the application of the notion of eternity "adh" explicitly stated or infered therein at all, much less offering an alternative reading for Ecclesiastes reference to "the earth". I will thus ignore everything you wrote for the verbage it appears to be. I will link you again to the post I wrote HERE in case your unrelated posting was due to your having forgotten what the original point was. Feel free to try again should you feel so inclined.

In any case, please be well and have a most excellent day,

JW