The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that spirit beings are not immortal.

Haven't we been through this before?

God is a Spirit:

When is God going to die?

To be immortal means that one will never die. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus was the ONLY immortal individual (besides Jehovah) in the universe at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy. Our Lord Jesus Christ "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB)

Jesus was never immortal. If Jesus was immortal, He could never have fulfilled His purpose of dying.

Yes we have been through this before, and I assumed, falsely it appears, that you understood that Jesus was not immortal until he proved that he would remain faithful to Jehovah.

Why do you boldly contradict the scripture that states plainly that Jesus is now immortal? You apparently didn't read my entire post, because I said that Jesus attained to immortality AFTER he died and was resurrected! Hello.

You are confusing Jesus with The Word.

Jesus was a human, and died.

[ttruscott]

Good Morning,

In what form did we exist as pre-humans? I'm guessing spiritual -- as that is the only other form mentioned in the Bible.

As spirits. Spiritual is an adjective I think meaning to act in a mystic or religious manner. I conceive of us pre-earth as the angels still are because they rejected rebelling against YHWH and become holy instead...they are spirits who never sinned.

If we were spiritual and became humans -- that's a downgrade.
Was it a punishment?

All suffering and death are a 'punishment' for sin but more than that too. Punishment / discipline has the connotation of an act of pain applied to another with the intent to cause the other person to reconsider their ways, hoping to change them. The tares are to live with the sinful good seed to prove to these sinful people of the kingdom that they, the tares, will never, indeed, can never repent and become holy so they must be judged and banished. So it is not just that we were downgraded to human status (sinners in a body) but that we had to live with the reprobate tares as Jesus said, "No (don't uproot them) Let them live together."

Heb 12:5-11 says it very clear: the sinful but legitimate sons of GOD are painfully disciplined until they are trained in righteousness and so become holy, in accord with all god's plans, including the judgment of Satan and his angelic goats,
(oblique reference to Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you (goats) who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And aren't spirits immortal, and humans mortal?

What makes you think or assume that the human body cannot be mortal if the human spirit is immortal? That humans return to their pure spirit state is found in such verses as Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN... This verse proves to Christians that the essential part of the human returns to the spirit world, Sheol or Hades, after their death. A person can't return to a place they have never been to so to return must mean they came from this place of the spirits to be a human probably when the Son of Man or the devil sowed them into the world of humanity, Matt 13: 36-39

This is enough to convince me I am a spirit held in a body.

How does one go from immortal to mortal?

The only method I know of (not counting the experience of Jesus the Christ) is to become a sinner and then be sent to the prison planet earth to be born into humanity. The spirit remains immortal but the body will die.

The same conundrum exists ...

You seem to be thinking that the person is first immortal, then he is mortal and then he becomes immortal again...??? If so, this is not a Christian attitude. We think we are created eternal then, if we sin, we inherit mortal bodies doomed to die but our spirits continue on either as redeemed children of GOD or as condemned enemies of GOD, doomed to eternal suffering Matt 25:46 “Then they (the goats, the people who are Satan's demonic angels) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

[Checkpoint]

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that spirit beings are not immortal.

Haven't we been through this before?

God is a Spirit:

When is God going to die?

To be immortal means that one will never die. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus was the ONLY immortal individual (besides Jehovah) in the universe at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy. Our Lord Jesus Christ "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB)

Jesus was never immortal. If Jesus was immortal, He could never have fulfilled His purpose of dying.

Yes we have been through this before, and I assumed, falsely it appears, that you understood that Jesus was not immortal until he proved that he would remain faithful to Jehovah.

Why do you boldly contradict the scripture that states plainly that Jesus is now immortal? You apparently didn't read my entire post, because I said that Jesus attained to immortality AFTER he died and was resurrected! Hello.

You are confusing Jesus with The Word.

Jesus was a human, and died.

God alone has full immortality, from eternity to eternity.

Jesus rose from the dead with derived immortality. He died once, but will never die again.

Derived immortality is conditional immortality, and is only given by God to those who seek it and find it. It is called "eternal life".

Romans 2:

6 He will render to each one according to his works:

7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life;

8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
11 For God shows no partiality.

[myth-one.com]

Heb 12:5-11 says it very clear: the sinful but legitimate sons of GOD are painfully disciplined until they are trained in righteousness and so become holy, in accord with all god's plans, including the judgment of Satan and his angelic goats,

So God ain't Love no more?

(oblique reference to Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you (goats) who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Goats cast into the eternal fire quickly perish.

What makes you think or assume that the human body cannot be mortal if the human spirit is immortal? That humans return to their pure spirit state is found in such verses as Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN... This verse proves to Christians that the essential part of the human returns to the spirit world, Sheol or Hades, after their death. A person can't return to a place they have never been to so to return must mean they came from this place of the spirits to be a human probably when the Son of Man or the devil sowed them into the world of humanity, Matt 13: 36-39

This is enough to convince me I am a spirit held in a body.

Then you have been tricked.

Those verses state that you will return to the dust from which you were created:

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

That is, you are a mortal animal, with no preeminence over the other animals:

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

You seem to be thinking that the person is first immortal, then he is mortal and then he becomes immortal again...???

No, the physical body comes first and believers will have everlasting spiritual bodies second:

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Matt 25:46 “Then they (the goats, the people who are Satan's demonic angels) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

Do me a favor, please.

In the following verse, what is defined as the wages or punishment for man sinning?

For the wages of sin is death; . . . (Romans 6:23)

And how long does that punishment last?

That answer is what Matthew 25:46 states as the fate of the unrighteous:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[tam]

Peace to you Ted!

[Replying to post 362 by ttruscott]

Indeed exactly. It is my interpretation which I do find plausible for the blasphemies it puts to rest. Since there is no one verse that can be interpreted to claim that our pre-existence is false, I will stick to it.

Claiming that we had a pre-existence... and claiming that we are eternally bound (even condemned) for a decision we made during that pre-existence - are two very different things.

I bet there are other explanations for any blasphemy that you think this theology puts to rest.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that spirit beings are not immortal.

Haven't we been through this before?

God is a Spirit:

When is God going to die?

To be immortal means that one will never die. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus was the ONLY immortal individual (besides Jehovah) in the universe at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy. Our Lord Jesus Christ "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB)

Jesus was never immortal. If Jesus was immortal, He could never have fulfilled His purpose of dying.

Yes we have been through this before, and I assumed, falsely it appears, that you understood that Jesus was not immortal until he proved that he would remain faithful to Jehovah.

Why do you boldly contradict the scripture that states plainly that Jesus is now immortal? You apparently didn't read my entire post, because I said that Jesus attained to immortality AFTER he died and was resurrected! Hello.

You are confusing Jesus with The Word.

Jesus was a human, and died.

God alone has full immortality, from eternity to eternity.

Jesus rose from the dead with derived immortality. He died once, but will never die again.

Derived immortality is conditional immortality, and is only given by God to those who seek it and find it. It is called "eternal life".

Romans 2:

6 He will render to each one according to his works:

7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life;

8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
11 For God shows no partiality.

Jesus rose from the grave as a man:

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Man is known to be mortal.

If after that point, Jesus accepted His "conditional immortality" for living a righteous (sinless) human life, then mankind has no Savior.

That is, He cannot accept it unto Himself and also give it away to those who believe in Him.

Isn't that a problem?

[ttruscott]

Jesus rose from the dead with derived immortality. He died once, but will never die again.

But He was not 'dead' when His body was dead, he was in Sheol preaching to the 'spirits in prison...'

[ttruscott]

Heb 12:5-11 says it very clear: the sinful but legitimate sons of GOD are painfully disciplined until they are trained in righteousness and so become holy, in accord with all god's plans, including the judgment of Satan and his angelic goats,

So God ain't Love no more?

Of course, HIS love for his elect holy angels and HIS sinful but elect people on earth has never wavered. These verses express that love as the disciplines cure HIS sinful elect from their propensity to sin. Nor does HE love everyone after they chose to be eternally sinful: Leviticus 20:23 'Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.

(oblique reference to Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you (goats) who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Goats cast into the eternal fire quickly perish.

Yes, an often repeated interpretation. Their life of perishing however lasts forever, Matt 25:46.

What makes you think or assume that the human body cannot be mortal if the human spirit is immortal? That humans return to their pure spirit state is found in such verses as Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN... This verse proves to Christians that the essential part of the human returns to the spirit world, Sheol or Hades, after their death. A person can't return to a place they have never been to so to return must mean they came from this place of the spirits to be a human probably when the Son of Man or the devil sowed them into the world of humanity, Matt 13: 36-39

This is enough to convince me I am a spirit held in a body.

Then you have been tricked.

Those verses state that you will return to the dust from which you were created:

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The body is dust and returns to dust, the spirit returns to GOD who gave it...gave it what? Existence and life in the body of course.

That is, you are a mortal animal, with no preeminence over the other animals:

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity saith the preacher. NO, all is not vanity as he goes on to say but he is poetically expressing the point of view of the wicked who are without HIS spirit. The preacher is telling the truth from the prov of a sinner but later tells the truth of GOD. One such pronouncement of wasted vanity is that we are no better and have no more prospects than the animal; we live eat then die, just the same.

You seem to be thinking that the person is first immortal, then he is mortal and then he becomes immortal again...???

No, the physical body comes first and believers will have everlasting spiritual bodies second:

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This verse is not about any order of creation but of resurrection of bodies. First the spirit has a physical body and then it has a spirit body. 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living soul"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. A soul is a spirit anchored in a body whom Adam was the first. while Christ led the way back out of the body to pure spirit.

imhCo

[Checkpoint]

Jesus rose from the dead with derived immortality. He died once, but will never die again.

But He was not 'dead' when His body was dead, he was in Sheol preaching to the 'spirits in prison...'

You are referring to a passage from 2 Peter, a book that does not mention Sheol/Hades.

The passage in 2 Peter is controversial, and opinions vary. I do not share yours on that passage, or on Sheol/Hades, on which there are also different views.


I believe what Jesus said about his death, as about anything else he spoke of.

Revelation 1:18

I was dead—but look!—I am alive forever and ever!

[myth-one.com]

(oblique reference to Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you (goats) who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Their life of perishing however lasts forever, Matt 25:46.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

"Everlasting" refers to the fire, not the amount of time those cast into the fire will require to perish!

"Life of perishing lasting forever" is another oxymoron.

If they are tortured forever in the fire, they never perish.

Those on the left will depart into the everlasting fire.

So the fire is said to last forever.

That's all that is said. Big deal.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What is the punishment stated in the following verses?:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   (Romans 6:23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Looks like the punishment is death or perishing to me. And yes, they will never live again. So the punishment of death is an everlasting punishment!

The only being which is specifically stated to be tormented eternally in the lake of fire is the devil:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

That is why the lake of fire is everlasting!

Since it's only prisoner lives forever, his prison must last forever also.

The devil cannot be killed because he is a spirit. The fire and brimstone are not for him, but are there to kill humans which shall be cast into hell and suffer their second death. It is the devil who will be tormented day and night for eternity, not the mythical souls of nonbelievers! This cannot be physical torture since the devil's spiritual body does not feel pain. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity.