God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Does that mean you will no longer post on this thread?

Not necessarily, no (obviously). But what's the point in rehashing with Tammy the same conversation tracks that I have walked down with either or both you and myth-one? Although I wouldn't quite consider you and myth-one an apples-to-apples comparison...

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[PinSeeker]

Therefore we are in agreement that this is referring to (physical) death, and all suffer this - believer and unbeliever alike. THOSE are the dead who know nothing.

If that's your understanding, then yes. But I think at least part of the problem here is the word "know." I would submit to you that to "know nothing" means far more than to just be ignorant of everything, to not be cognizant of anything. That's a very shallow understanding. Very similar in this respect is the term "foreknew" as used by Paul in Romans 8:29. That term does not merely mean "foresaw" or "knew beforehand," as if God "looked down the corridors of time" and saw who would choose Him and therefore that was the basis of His predestining of some to be conformed to the image of His Son. In both Ecclesiastes and Romans, knowing is virtually synonymous with loving and taking enjoyment in. So, to know nothing, as in Ecclesiastes 9:5, is not merely being cognizant of nothing, but rather no longer able to love or take an active part in or enjoy temporal life -- life under the sun.

There's no contradiction with my understanding and Ecc 4:2-3. In 4, Solomon is speaking about the misery of the living who are oppressed. He states that he thinks the dead are more fortunate than them. Why? Because the dead are not suffering as the living are suffering under oppression. Just like Job who longed to descend to Sheol to escape this suffering.

Well, he considers the dead more fortunate than those who are still alive, because they are no longer subjected to sin or suffering in any way the fallenness of this world. But absolutely. So maybe you're closer to me than I thought... But still, if you think that the dead knowing nothing means they are not existing and use 9:5 in that way and thus as a proof text that unbelievers cease to exist for eternity, then, inadvertent as it may be, that understanding is both out of context of chapter 9 and the whole of Ecclesiastes and directly contradicting of 4:2-3. This was the point.

So what he's saying in 9:5 is that when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.

Yes, that is self-evident. But he does not limit this to just on the earth, as you seem to be doing. Their opportunity to enjoy (or hate) no longer exists, period. Because they are dead.

Solomon's context not only in chapter 9 but in Ecclesiastes does indeed limit their opportunity to enjoy temporal things as non-existent, because they are no longer temporally present. They are no longer "under the sun." They are no longer able t enjoy (or hate) temporally, because they are no longer present in the temporal world.

(Side note: since his not speaking of the resurrection of the dead in these verses, there is no reason to think that he did not know people will once again enjoy things after that resurrection - those who receive a resurrection to life, that is. So this cessation is complete, but temporary).

Agreed... a complete separation from the temporal, for both believer and non-believer alike. To make the inference that those who receive a resurrection to life will consciously enjoy things eternal (no longer temporal, after Jesus returns and the Judgment executed) is right and good. But to make the converse inference that those who are resurrected to death will consciously experience the absolute opposite of enjoyment is also right and good. To draw on what I said several posts ago, the same line of thought applies, that, by saying to the thief crucified on His right that he would be with Him in paradise that day, Jesus, in saying nothing to the thief on His left, was not implicitly telling him or us that he would no longer exist, but rather only that he would not be with Him in paradise and thus... somewhere else.

...although one might want to exercise some caution here, because things being hard (say illness or loss of possessions, loss of loved ones, etc) does not mean that one does not have God's approval. Likewise, people succeeding in this life (even those who think they are godly, but who are not), does not mean that they have God's approval.

Agree. I insinuated neither.

No offense taken, none at all, and we can certainly part (and even disagree) in peace. See you around the forum!

Very good. Thank you.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

[myth-one.com]

[quote="Regarding the verses quoted using the word "death," myth-one.com"]I believe them to be true as written![/quote]

Absolutely. So do I.

But you must "interpret" them to comply with your false belief that all mankind is created to exist eternally.

No, I just don't read them in such as strict, wooden, fundamentalist way, that's all.

OK, we can agree that you leave much room to allow for your private interpretations.

But the fact that mankind exists eternally in one state or the other is crystal clear... or should be anyway.

It is crystal clear: The wages of sin is death.

The wages of sin is not anything other than death -- as you suggest.

We are commanded to choose life or death -- not life with God or life without God in everlasting torment.

Thus the "dead know not any thing" cannot be true without your redefining dead to be "spiritual death" or "eternal separation from God" or some such nonsense.

I "redefine" nothing, myth-one. God is certainly not a dealer of "nonsense." Or deception, for that matter. God is not responsible for human misunderstanding or succumbing to deception.

God is not responsible for misunderstanding and those succumbing to deception. God clearly states the two possible choices for each human -- life or death.

Satan is responsible for inspiring the false belief in mankind's immortality in the first few pages of the Bible:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated this lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

Everlasting existence in torment is surely not dying.

It is generally considered that the serpent lied.

But you believe the serpent -- that no man shall surely die.

[PinSeeker]

OK, we can agree that you leave much room to allow for your private interpretations.

No, I do not live any "room," as God does not. And my interpretations are not private in any sense.

The wages of sin is not anything other than death -- as you suggest.

I suggest nothing of the sort. I assert, however -- because God tells us and shows us -- that death is not cessation of existence. Therefore, I say -- I wish I had a nickel for every time I've said this -- that you're understanding of death is very much mistaken.

We are commanded to choose life or death -- not life with God or life without God in everlasting torment.

No, we are invited to repent and believe. The reward or consequence of doing so or failing to do so is God's doing.

God is not responsible for misunderstanding and those succumbing to deception.

Absolutely correct. Never have I said insinuated such. But there is a deceiver who is responsible for that deception, and man, in his fallen state, is certainly susceptible to misunderstanding and for succumbing to that deception.

God clearly states the two possible choices for each human -- life or death.

Very true. But He also clearly states that death is not cessation of existence.

Satan is responsible for inspiring the false belief in mankind's immortality in the first few pages of the Bible...

This is absolutely incorrect. Actually, Satan is responsible for deceiving Eve into believing the opposite of what God promised Adam and Eve in Genesis 2, that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die in that very day. The question is, do you believe Adam and Eve died that very day, as God said they would? Apparently, you don't. Maybe I'm wrong; do you?

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated this lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

No, "mainstream" Christian theologians understand correctly -- unlike you -- what that lie truly is.

Everlasting existence in torment is surely not dying.

It is most certainly not cessation of existence, but it is most certainly death.

It is generally considered that the serpent lied. But you believe the serpent -- that no man shall surely die.

My goodness. As I have said several times, the serpent's lie was that Adam and Eve would not die in that very day that they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is what God told them would happen, and what Satan deceptively refuted. This was his lie. They did in fact die, and by extension, all mere men (and women) from that time on are born dead. The great irony here is that you seem to be the one that at least inadvertently believes the serpent.

Wow. I'm really, really tired of you reinterpreting my statements to suit your own terribly flawed narrative, myth-one. Putting words in another's mouth is very wrong, mean-spirited, unloving, and totally devoid of grace. If you want to change your tone, we can continue. If not, this, um, "conversation" is at an end.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 381 by PinSeeker]

To summarize your beliefs:

1 - The wages of sin is death.

2 - Where death is everlasting torment somewhere.

Is that correct?

[Checkpoint]

Does that mean you will no longer post on this thread?

Not necessarily, no (obviously). But what's the point in rehashing with Tammy the same conversation tracks that I have walked down with either or both you and myth-one? Although I wouldn't quite consider you and myth-one an apples-to-apples comparison...

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

Fair enough, Pinseeker.

I have a suggestion for you.

Why don't we give consideration to the four questions I proposed to begin this thread?

I am eager to read your answers, but in particular, the one to question 2. You may want to preface that with an answer to question 1, and that would be just fine with me.

Grace and peace, once again, to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 381 by PinSeeker]

To summarize your beliefs:

1 - The wages of sin is death.

2 - Where death is everlasting torment somewhere.

Is that correct?

Where death is separation from God, right? That is what real death is right?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 381 by PinSeeker]

To summarize your beliefs:

1 - The wages of sin is death.

2 - Where death is everlasting torment somewhere.

Is that correct?

Where death is separation from God, right? That is what real death is right?

One characteristic of God is that He is omnipresent.

Omnipresence is the property of being present everywhere.

Thus one cannot escape from the presence of God.

So death is not separation from God.

Death is separation from life.

Here's a shot in the dark -- why not allow the wages of sin to be death, and thus agree with God?

Where:

Death = the absence of life, the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of a person.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Do not fear everlasting death.

It is one of the two choices which God permits and honors -- everlasting life or everlasting death.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 385 by myth-one.com]

OK so how do you respond to:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

punishment of eternal destruction = hell

away from the presence of the Lord = God can take his being away from an area of reality.

Now I am still thinking on all this but what I think we find is that God is present in hell executing his judgement and in hell, we experience God's wrath and he has removed his goodness.

But

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 385 by myth-one.com]

OK so how do you respond to:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

punishment of eternal destruction = hell

away from the presence of the Lord = God can take his being away from an area of reality.

Now I am still thinking on all this but what I think we find is that God is present in hell executing his judgement and in hell, we experience God's wrath and he has removed his goodness.

But

Additional: Are you a pantheist?