Heaven & the Resurrection

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:55 pm

Many believe that the righteous men and women from bible times such as Abraham, died and went to heaven.

If that is the case for you, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a future resurrection on "the last day"? What do you think this refers to.

JOHN 11: 24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Yahu · Post by **Yahu** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:51 am

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 33 by onewithhim]

It also does not square with teh OT accounts of Sheol, where the dead are alive, though barely, as semi-comatose shades, as we find in Isa. 14, for example.

Where are you getting the idea of semi-comatose shades in Isa 14? The ghosts/shades mentioned in Isa 14 are the kings in Sheol that are taunting Lucifer as having becoming weak like them in death, his body eaten by worms and cast from his tomb and trampled upon while they each had his body lie in the royal tombs. Then they say 'IS THIS THE MAN that ...?'

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Here is the progression,
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

The occupants of sheol are stired up, particularly the 'chief ones', the kings of nations like Abraham being a father of many nations in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Then they taunt him about becoming a weak one, ie being dead like them.

They seem pretty lively and talkative to me.

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

So much for his 'pomp' and musical skills in death while the worms eat his body.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

His spirit descends into sheol and they (the dead kings of the nations) ask 'is this the MAN ...?' Again they are talkative.

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

Each king lie in glory in their own tombs.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

But Lucifer has his grave site defiled due to the hatred of the people and his corpse is trodden under foot. He is despised by the living for his wickedness and questioned by the rulers over nations in Sheol.

I don't see any reference to semi-comatose shades.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:07 am

[Replying to post 41 by Yahu]

I see it in Isa. 141), in the lines, All greet you with these words: "So you , too, are as impotent as we are, and have become like one of us.'" Given that elsewhere, as in Job, together with the account in I Sam. 28 of Saul and the medium of Endor, the shades are described as weak and trembling, without any thoughts, etc., the picture does emerge of semi-comatose, impotent individuals.

Yahu · Post by **Yahu** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:09 am

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 32 by Yahu]
All divisions of higher education stress critical, analytical, cognitive skills. That is something JW ideology abhors, as higher education encourages people to think for themselves and ask questions. JW-type ideology is top-down leadership, a no-questions-asked approach, very anti-intellectual. Hence, what I am talking about has nothing to do with the election or the media.

Actually I agree with you on that. Top-down leadership is dangerous because all it takes is corruption at the top and it is propagated throughout the entire denomination and no-one is allowed to 'test the spirit' behind any teaching. That is contrary to scriptural instruction. We are each accountable to study to show OUR SELF approved. JW don't study, they just regurgitate WatchTower teachings forced upon them.

I haven't found any JW that will even think for themselves while I am willing to reject even commonly held doctrine as myth when my own studies disagree with that common doctrine. Granted I am coming at it from my engineering background and want conformation in more then taking a single passage out of context to build a doctrine. A concept needs matching mated pairing verses in other areas.

I had to take Hebrew to find some of that confirmation. For example, I reject the Christian myth spread by Augustine that Lucifer was a great angel that rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels into rebellion pre-Adam and those fallen angels are demons. I found in my own studies that totally contradicts too many passages that most people ignore as well as not having any understanding of all the pagan references in scripture. Then of course most people overlook non-canon works totally and don't understand the knowledge base of the people writing the canon. An example of that is Jude directly quoting from Enoch Book 1. If you don't know the rest of the passage in Enoch, how can you understand Jude's reference?

Yahu · Post by **Yahu** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:21 am

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 41 by Yahu]

I see it in Isa. 141), in the lines, All greet you with these words: "So you , too, are as impotent as we are, and have become like one of us.'" Given that elsewhere, as in Job, together with the account in I Sam. 28 of Saul and the medium of Endor, the shades are described as weak and trembling, without any thoughts, etc., the picture does emerge of semi-comatose, impotent individuals.

I just take that as being without physical form, ie only being able to appear as apparitions as in appear as an 'angel of light'. Spirits can't interact with the physical realm easily but they can interact through people via influence. For example, the man possessed by Legion. It is a lot harder for a spirit to say move a glass then for them to enter a living being to cause that being to move the glass.

What reference are you meaning in Job? The time one of Job's 'friends' tells Job to seek an ancestral spirit guide? Or the reference to the shades trembling beneath the waters and inhabiting them? Or are you thinking of some other reference to spirits? Job does accuse one of his friends as having a some spirit speak through him.

Yahu · Post by **Yahu** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:40 am

onewithhim wrote:
Donray wrote: [Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

My interpolation just you have yours. I guess Jesus did not know how to make clear and concise stuff.
Jesus was quite clear, if you read what he said without preconceived ideas. "Jesus said to her [Martha], 'Your brother will rise again.' Martha said to him, 'I KNOW THAT HE WILL RISE AGAIN IN THE RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY.' Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die." (John 11:23-26, NASB)

So, when would the dead rise again? ON THE LAST DAY. That day hasn't come yet.

[/u][/b]

Martha said that. It was her understanding, not a teaching of Yeshua. You can't take her opinion as a gospel truth. That is not how we are to interpret scripture.

That would be like taking one of Job's friends as speaking truth when we are told that they are in error directly by Yah in later chapters.

You have to look at the speaker, the audience, and the context first and then you best find conformation in some other passage. Building entire doctrines off a single reference is foolishness.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:16 am

[Replying to Yahu]

I am thinking of the reference to the shades trembling in Job. I don't think the Bible has in mind any sprit-matter or mind-body dualism, which I believe came into Christianity via Hellenic philosophy. In the Bible, everything has a physical dimension, including God, which is why God is attributed so many body parts. So I don't think of the shades as immaterial beings. They are physical realities, frail as they may be.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:28 am

Donray wrote: [Replying to post 23 by JehovahsWitness]

You don't seem to understand, EVERYTHING in the BIBLE is being interpreted though your religious upbringing, your knowledge of history, etc. In your case, you were brainwashed by your up bringing in the JW cult.

In modern day usage the term CULT is highly offensive and I strongly take exception to its usage in regard to my religion. I don't make derogatory or blanket remarks about any group and do not expect to be subjected to them in curtious exchange here on this forum.

If your intension was simply to refer to being part of a "religious movement" feel free to use those or any equivalent alternative terms.

JEHOVALS WITNESS

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:35 am

Donray wrote:

You don't seem to understand, EVERYTHING in the BIBLE is being interpreted ....

I understand that everyone, whether they are religious or not, interprets what they read in any book including the bible. Atheist interpret the bible, pagans interpret the bible, Muslims interpret the bible and YOU interpret the bible. So what makes your interpretation right and mine wrong?

JW

Yahu · Post by **Yahu** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:43 am

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to Yahu]

I am thinking of the reference to the shades trembling in Job. I don't think the Bible has in mind any sprit-matter or mind-body dualism, which I believe came into Christianity via Hellenic philosophy. In the Bible, everything has a physical dimension, including God, which is why God is attributed so many body parts. So I don't think of the shades as immaterial beings. They are physical realities, frail as they may be.

This verse?
Job 26:5 (AV) Dead <07496> things are formed <02342> (8787) from under the waters <04325>, and the inhabitants <07931> (8802) thereof.

Job 26:5 (Darby) the shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof;

Job 26:5 (KJ) Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.

The verb translated as tremble also means 'to dance'. It could just as easily be translated as 'Ghosts dance beneath the waters and inhabit them' as in the seas are a frolicking playground for ghosts. Note the Legion didn't want to be cast into the abyss but entered the swine and ran into the sea. They wanted to go to the sea, not the abyss and it was easy for them to take over the unclean animals, ie pigs. There are many unclean animals in the seas for them to inhabit like sharks, dolphins, whales,....

Job also references a spirit in one of his friends.
Job 26:4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Job is asking his friend, what spirit are you letting speak through you as if he is possessed by a spirit.

Earlier that same friend tells Job to seek an ancestral spirit guide.

Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:
9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)
10 Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?

Bildad is telling Job to go to a pagan temple to get an ancestral spirit guide of an ancient that is from the 'former age' because they have been around much longer then us old men because our days are nothing compared to their ancient wisdom. Job's friends were pagans. The debate in Job is over which god Job should follow and who he offended. You can't go by the capitol 'G' in 'God' in most translations. They use a different Hebrew word for God then Job uses for Yahweh. Job uses Elohyim, but his friends don't.

Eliphaz even tells Job that his god traverses the circuit of the heavens but can't see through dark clouds. He is a sun god worshiper. He is saying that his god follows his course across the sky to bring light in day so you must do your sinning at night and under cover of dark clouds to hide them from view.

Part of that paganism is dealing in ancestral spirits, ghosts to inhabit as familiar spirits yet Yah forbids dealing with ancestral spirits or familiar spirits.

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:55 am

Yahu wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Donray wrote: [Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

My interpolation just you have yours. I guess Jesus did not know how to make clear and concise stuff.
Jesus was quite clear, if you read what he said without preconceived ideas. "Jesus said to her [Martha], 'Your brother will rise again.' Martha said to him, 'I KNOW THAT HE WILL RISE AGAIN IN THE RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY.' Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die." (John 11:23-26, NASB)

So, when would the dead rise again? ON THE LAST DAY. That day hasn't come yet.

[/u][/b]
Martha said that. It was her understanding, not a teaching of Yeshua. You can't take her opinion as a gospel truth. That is not how we are to interpret scripture.

That would be like taking one of Job's friends as speaking truth when we are told that they are in error directly by Yah in later chapters.

You have to look at the speaker, the audience, and the context first and then you best find conformation in some other passage. Building entire doctrines off a single reference is foolishness.

So, as you do not accept what Martha said, when do you say believers are resurrected, raised up?