Did we Exist Before The Garden of Eden?

[theStudent]

For debate:
Did we all exist in the spirit realm or in another realm before our birth as humans?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 31 by ttruscott]

Not a bad suggestion but a little daunting at the book this would make. One post per scripture will not work as you can see they are separated into 9 different categories and there are usually a number of verses supporting any single category. To split the verses into individual statements without the other verses would not work because each one supports the other.

As for keeping the posts short, you can imagine that some veres need backstory and a careful handling of language as you have seen me do so far. In other words, some posts would be quite long.

You suggest I offer a detailed explanation of how my interpretation BUT, for instance, consider the category Elephants, a whimsical title based upon the old kid's joke:
Q: WHY DO ELEPHANTS WRITE SCRIPTURES ON THEIR TOE NAILS?
A: So that they can hide in the Bible and nobody sees them.
This is somewhat similar to the worldly version; they paint their toenails red so they can hide in the strawberry patch.

It is a discussion about whether there are any doctrines hidden in scripture that have not been taught to us yet. It covers over 10 verses, their interpretation and the theological commentary to build the idea and tie it all together.

See my problem with providing details?

Yes. I can see the problems that can arise when we don't let the Bible speak for itself.
When we can't use other scriptures to verify what another is saying, but instead try to interpret it by going beyond what is written, there is a problem.
This is an example:

An Introduction to Genesis 2:18 and 2:25:
I believe that in the early chapters of Genesis, it was GOD's intention to bear witness to the purpose of life, that is, our need to become holy and to give up any idolatry in our personal relationships (that is, that we were originally exiled from Paradise because of our unholiness and idolatry), while at the same time covering over the fact of our preconception existence, that is, while at the same time, not destroying the delusion regarding the time of our true beginning.

I challenge you to use just scripture to come to these conclusions.
For example, quote a scripture, explain the scripture, and let's see if we arrive where you are.

John 16:12, Jesus said: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.

Hence, Jesus knew some truth that He was unable to disclose to us, and He also knew that this truth would someday be disclosed to the Church. In other words, Jesus knew that the Church was going to receive a new revelation in the future.

So now, this being the case, I ask: would not GOD bear witness in Their Word to a revelation that They intended to give in the future?

Jesus had many things to tell them, but that time was not then. When the holy spirit arrived upon them, then those things would be revealed, and become clearer. They would receive a revelation, but why do you say a new one, what's new about it?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 34 by ttruscott]

Now, which phrase do you see means that Adam's sin passed to us when it clearly says HIS DEATH passed to us? To me it sounds like, as sinners, by being in Adam we receive death because we were a sinners already.

It is clear ttruscott.
Romans 5:
12 through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men...
18 So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation...
(Psalm 51:5) ...Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin.
The scriptures ttruscott, say that all of Adam's offspring were born in sin, inherited from Adam.
Explain how death can be passed on.

Let's deal with this one before we move on.
I have something to look after, so I will be back tonight, God's will.

[ttruscott]

Jesus had many things to tell them, but that time was not then. When the holy spirit arrived upon them, then those things would be revealed, and become clearer. They would receive a revelation, but why do you say a new one, what's new about it?

If it is an old thought, it is known so it cannot be 'revealed'.

[ttruscott]

The scriptures ttruscott, say that all of Adam's offspring were born in sin, inherited from Adam.

Explain how death can be passed on.

Let's deal with this one before we move on.

Yes, sin entered with Adam though HE was the third sinner in the garden, so how did he pull that one off?

Yes we are born in sin - but a robot or puppet cannot sin as they cannot choose to sin. If we are created in sin we are not guilty of sin, our maker is. I am not going against scripture, I'm going against the orthodox blasphemous interpretation of scripture that GOD creates sinners. Do you need a verse to say "Thou shalt not blaspheme!" before you will consider it to be wrong?

IF we are sinners and guilty then we must have chosen to go against GOD. IF we are born as sinenrs then we must have made that choice before our birth.

But if your worship of scripture is so strong why do you need to add what is not there in peril of the curse. Where are the words: inherited from Adam.??? You add in these words to create your theology but when I add in a logical thought I'm scorned. It is illogical to treat yourself and me differently and self serving.

Death is passed on by our genes being human but sin cannot be because GOD does not create evil: Psalm 92:15 ...proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." and also Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

I do not just pay lip service to HIM when I praise HIM for HIS holiness, I repudiate all thought that HE is not holy which HIS creating evil would prove. There is no wickedness in HIM to come from HIM and the creation of wickedness is to create imperfection. And to use ra to suggest differently is to use one verse as your only witness and only one small part of the whole array of meanings of ra at that.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 44 by ttruscott]

Yes, sin entered with Adam though HE was the third sinner in the garden, so how did he pull that one off?

Thank you.
I'm glad we finally agree on scripture.

So that's clear then.
Adam sinned. He had offspring. His offspring inherited sin which results in death. So all men are dying due to the fact they inherited sin from their foreparent Adam.

Now you want to know how did Adam "pull off" being the third sinner?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but perhaps you can give me a bit more detail that might help.

Yes we are born in sin - but a robot or puppet cannot sin as they cannot choose to sin. If we are created in sin we are not guilty of sin, our maker is. I am not going against scripture, I'm going against the orthodox blasphemous interpretation of scripture that GOD creates sinners. Do you need a verse to say "Thou shalt not blaspheme!" before you will consider it to be wrong?

And here I was thinking you finally agreed with scripture. How wrong I am.

Thanks for that expression. It reveals to me the problem you are having... at least two of them.

1. So you don't understand what it means to be born a sinner.
   • If we understand what sin is, that might help.
     Jehovah's Witnesses understand sin to mean - miss the mark of God's righteous standards of perfection, or fall short.
     The common Hebrew term translated sin is chat-tath; in Greek the usual word is ha-mar-tia. In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha-ta; Gr., ha-mar-tano) mean miss, in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point.
     
     People say we sin in thought word and deed. Is that true?
     
     (Genesis 6:5) Consequently, Jehovah saw that mans wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time.
     (Jeremiah 17:9, 10) The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it? I, Jehovah, am searching i]the heart[/i], Examining the innermost thoughts, To give to each one according to his ways, According to the fruitage of his works.
     There are more scriptures, but these would be sufficient in covering how we sin in thought.
     We have not committed the act of sin, but our thoughts are not in line with God's standards.
     
     (1 Peter 3:10) For whoever would love life and see good days must guard his tongue from bad and his lips from speaking deception.
     (James 3:5-10) So, too, the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it makes great brags. See how small a fire it takes to set a great forest ablaze! The tongue is also a fire. The tongue represents a world of unrighteousness among our body members, for it defiles all the body and sets the whole course of life on fire, and it is set on fire by Ge-henna. For every kind of wild animal and bird and reptile and sea creature is to be tamed and has been tamed by humans. But no human can tame the tongue. It is unruly and injurious, full of deadly poison. With it we praise Jehovah, the Father, and yet with it we curse men who have come into existence in the likeness of God. Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing...
     Again, there are many scriptures, but these show that we sin in word.
     There is no need to use scriptures to show that we all sin in deed.
     
     There is no man that does not sin. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

     For there is no righteous man on earth who always does good and never sins.

     Even when we don't want to sin, we sin. (Romans 7:13-25)
     However, the Bible tells us to avoid practicing sin - that is willfully sinning. (Hebrews 10:26-31)
     

     IF we are sinners and guilty then we must have chosen to go against GOD. IF we are born as sinenrs then we must have made that choice before our birth.

     No, and no scripture says that. You reason that way, which is wrong and is the second reason why you have the problem with scripture.
2. Some interpret the scriptures to fit their ideas/understanding, rather than allow their understanding/interpretation to be directed by the scriptures.
   (1 Corinthians 4:6)

   Do not go beyond the things that are written, so that you may not be puffed up with pride,...

   The Bible interprets itself, in that the scripture should harmoniously agree.
   
   So when the scriptures disagree with our understanding, we should humbly adjust our understanding to harmonize with scriptures, rather than proudly twist the scriptures to fit our understanding.

But if your worship of scripture is so strong why do you need to add what is not there in peril of the curse. Where are the words: inherited from Adam.??? You add in these words to create your theology but when I add in a logical thought I'm scorned. It is illogical to treat yourself and me differently and self serving.

See above.

Death is passed on by our genes being human but sin cannot be because GOD does not create evil: Psalm 92:15 ...proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." and also Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

This doesn't say, What causes death? Are you saying God kills all his children?
How is death genetically passed on? Death is a state, not a germ, or disease.

I do not just pay lip service to HIM when I praise HIM for HIS holiness, I repudiate all thought that HE is not holy which HIS creating evil would prove. There is no wickedness in HIM to come from HIM and the creation of wickedness is to create imperfection. And to use ra to suggest differently is to use one verse as your only witness and only one small part of the whole array of meanings of ra at that.

I agreed with you that God is not is not evil, nor does he do wickedness, but I also pointed out to you from scripture that he does not create it either. He created angels, but he did not create Satan.
Satan means deceiver. So the angel chose to become a deceiver - Satan.
Similarly, Jehoah created Adam, but he did not create sin. Adam sinned - a falling away from God's perfect standards, so he could only pass on what he possessed - a defect, imperfection, a fall away from perfection.

God however, does allow evil, but that doesn't mean that he does it.
To illustrate these points.
So you bring a son into the world, and in his late teens, he decided to leave home and choose his own lifestyle - one that is in opposition to your standards - perhaps he decided to become a member of a notorious gang.
Would it be right to say, you made him that way? No. He chose to become what he is. You did not stop him, but neither did you make him such.

How are these deviating from scriptural truths?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 44 by ttruscott]

Yes, sin entered with Adam though HE was the third sinner in the garden, so how did he pull that one off?

Thank you.
I'm glad we finally agree on scripture.

So that's clear then.
Adam sinned. He had offspring. His offspring inherited sin which results in death. So all men are dying due to the fact they inherited sin from their foreparent Adam.

You still have not answered where it is written that WE INHERITED HIS SIN??? Is it not assumed to be implied in our inheritance of his death? And if that is implied, where is my logic wrong to accept that this implies that GOD's holiness is being blasphemed as HE can do nor create any evil!?

Now you want to know how did Adam "pull off" being the third sinner?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but perhaps you can give me a bit more detail that might help.

The first sinner in the garden was the serpent who arrived sinful with evil intent. The second was Eve who, if she was not guilty for having deep theological discussions with GOD's enemy about life and death with an inclination to follow him instead of rebuking him, at least broke the command when she ate, being the second to sin in the garden. Third to sin was Adam who idolized Eve over GOD and could not trust GOD to deal with HIS wife properly.

Yes we are born in sin - but a robot or puppet cannot sin as they cannot choose to sin. If we are created in sin we are not guilty of sin, our maker is. I am not going against scripture, I'm going against the orthodox blasphemous interpretation of scripture that GOD creates sinners. Do you need a verse to say "Thou shalt not blaspheme!" before you will consider it to be wrong?

And here I was thinking you finally agreed with scripture. How wrong I am.

So God gets to create me as evil but HE could not created Adam as evil because GOD cannot create evil??? How twisted this gets.

IF we are sinners and guilty then we must have chosen to go against GOD. IF we are born as sinenrs then we must have made that choice before our birth.

No, and no scripture says that. You reason that way, which is wrong...

No scripture says the words "we inherit sin from Adam" either...yet you believe it because it is a logical necessity of your theology. I accept that GOD is HOLY means HE cannot create or do any evil. Period. I have waaaaay more verses to support this premise than you do to support we inherited Adam's sin. HE only created innocent people in the same state you think HE had to have created Adam, in the garden. I agree that that state is absolutely necessary for Adam's creation but I also imply that it was necessary for all of creation, BUT

instead of creating us in an Adam like innocence, you want me to believe that HE put me, part of HIS Bride, into Adam's sin? For no reason?!! Not one of you has ever answered this, why create HIS BRIDE sinners? I do not accept pages of scripture as an answer as, from my pov, they all support PCE!

The Bible interprets itself, in that the scripture should harmoniously agree.

Yes, the increase of harmonious agreement within interpretation of scripture has increased a hundredfold with PCE. What PCE does not harmonize with is the WTS interpretation. What the Bible has written down is the truth. When anyone, person or society claims what the verses mean, is interpretation. You want to deny that and claim to be plugged into pure truth. Fine, most Churches do that, but I do not accept it. For instance I find that the the truth GOD is holy is better served by our being created perfectly innocent just like Adam was, supposedly in the garden. You have no verse that says Adam was innocent in the garden...

So when the scriptures disagree with our understanding, we should humbly adjust our understanding to harmonize with scriptures, rather than proudly twist the scriptures to fit our understanding.

How wonderfully lofty. All the big Churches claim the same thing, don't they. But they still disagree. And all of Christendom disagrees with the WTS on many important doctrines do they not ?, yet you think you are in better harmony than they! That gives them the freedom to make the same claim right back! So who is forcing scripture to support their theology and who is changing their doctrine to fit scripture?

I was Calvinist about some verses, I was Arminian about others and accepted Catholic teaching about some others. Then I decided they were missing the true meaning of scripture and followed the Spirit into a new understanding that for me has proven to be waaaay more harmonious to ALL the words as written that any other church, yours included.

But if your worship of scripture is so strong why do you need to add what is not there in peril of the curse. Where are the words: inherited from Adam.??? You add in these words to create your theology but when I add in a logical thought I'm scorned. It is illogical to treat yourself and me differently and self serving.

See above.

Does not compute...how about a good clear one-liner?

Death is passed on by our genes being human but sin cannot be because GOD does not create evil: Psalm 92:15 ...proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." and also Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

This doesn't say, What causes death? Are you saying God kills all his children?

Of course I didn't quote it to answer what causes death but to get across that our death came from Adam but not by his sin because GOD cannot create anyone as sinful!!!

How is death genetically passed on? Death is a state, not a germ, or disease.

GOD kills everyone! Death is the wages for sin and everyone born human is born a sinner so is under the judgment of death. Do you believe some live without GOD's support? The state of death is passed to Adam's descendants by the genetic failure built into the cells so that as we age, the new ones created to replace old ones are corrupt and imperfect and that process ends in death.

I do not just pay lip service to HIM when I praise HIM for HIS holiness, I repudiate all thought that HE is not holy which HIS creating evil would prove. There is no wickedness in HIM to come from HIM and the creation of wickedness is to create imperfection. And to use ra to suggest differently is to use one verse as your only witness and only one small part of the whole array of meanings of ra at that.

I agreed with you that God is not is not evil, nor does he do wickedness, but I also pointed out to you from scripture that he does not create it either. He created angels, but he did not create Satan.

Satan means deceiver. So the angel chose to become a deceiver - Satan.
Similarly, Jehoah created Adam, but he did not create sin. Adam sinned - a falling away from God's perfect standards, so he could only pass on what he possessed - a defect, imperfection, a fall away from perfection.

God however, does allow evil, but that doesn't mean that he does it.

I AGREE WITH THIS! I have written the same thoughts myself many many times. So the angel chose to become the deceiver and Adam chose to rebel against GOD's plan.

So as sinners, you and I also CHOSE to become evil in GOD's sight by some rebellious thought which produced an evil act. Why is this logic rejected?

It is the act of our choosing that keeps the guilt for the creation of evil from GOD because HE allowed it but HE did not create it! HIS creation created evil by their free will decision to thwart HIM. But if anyone became a sinner liable to hell if they are not saved from their CREATED state, THEN HE IS GUILTY BECAUSE THEY HAD NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER of becoming sinful or not!

So my logical assessment of YOUR DOCTRINE is to ask, when did we chose to be evil to be born as sinners?

[ttruscott]

This

I AGREE WITH THIS! I have written the same thoughts myself many many times. So the angel chose to become the deceiver and Adam chose to rebel against GOD's plan.

So as sinners, you and I also CHOSE to become evil in GOD's sight by some rebellious thought which produced an evil act. Why is this logic rejected?

It is the act of our choosing that keeps the guilt for the creation of evil from GOD because HE allowed it but HE did not create it! HIS creation created evil by their free will decision to thwart HIM. But if anyone became a sinner liable to hell if they are not saved from their CREATED state, THEN HE IS GUILTY BECAUSE THEY HAD NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER of becoming sinful or not!

So my logical assessment of YOUR DOCTRINE is to ask, when did we chose to be evil to be born as sinners?

shut down the topic???