Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?

[polonius]

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

[polonius]

JW posted:

Quote:
'...there are no biblical errors.


Mark 2:25-26
He said to them, Have you never read what David did* when he was in need and he and his companions were hungry?26How he went into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the bread of offering that only the priests could lawfully eat, and shared it with his companions?

Jesus made a biblical error here. It wasnt Abiathar but Ahmelech who gave David the sacred bread. (See Sam 21:1-4

Scribe's error not God's error. Which I'm sure someone has told you before, yet I doubt your knowing it's a scribe's error will change your current dogma. The error doesn't change the point of the message.

RESPONSE: Oh, I get it. All the scribes made the same error in all the copies of that passage. And none caught the error!

Should Bible readers really take that explanation seriously?

The job of a scribe is to copy the scriptures exactly as it is. Perhaps not all copies had the error but the copies we discovered do. To me it's not a big deal. As I said, those that stick to the their dogma that the Bible can't be trusted will make it a big deal. They need the Bible to be wrong so that their doctrines can survive. Which means the people that don't trust the Bible have more motive to change the Bible then some poor copyist that simply made a mistake.

The real question is should we take those seriously whose faith in God is so weak that they think God can't get truth to us in the form of a book.

RESPONSE:

Perhaps not all copies had the error but the copies we discovered do.

If I recall correctly, aren't there about 6000 Greek tests of the New Testament?

"Parts of the New Testament have been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work, having over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian. The dates of these manuscripts range from c. 125 .."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript


And all of the originals used for copying that passage had the same error? And none of the copyists or proofreaders noticed the errors or difference from other copies? Is that credible?

The real question is should we take those seriously whose faith in God is so weak that they think God can't get truth to us in the form of a book.

RESPONSE: Alternately, maybe God had nothing to do with writing the Bible. That would be more probable, wouldn't it?

[2timothy316]

RESPONSE: Alternately, maybe God had nothing to do with writing the Bible. That would be more probably, wouldn't it?

If you'd like to debate that then please feel free to debate the Bible in another forum. In this subforum, the Bible is not on trial nor am I obligated to defend it or try to breath life into your lack of faith in it. Have a good day!

[polonius]

RESPONSE: Alternately, maybe God had nothing to do with writing the Bible. That would be more probable, wouldn't it?

If you'd like to debate that then please feel free to debate the Bible in another forum. In this subforum, the Bible is not on trial nor am I obligated to defend it or try to breath life into your lack of faith in it. Have a good day!

.

RESPONSE: In short, you can't disprove my facts, right?

[2timothy316]

RESPONSE: Alternately, maybe God had nothing to do with writing the Bible. That would be more probable, wouldn't it?

If you'd like to debate that then please feel free to debate the Bible in another forum. In this subforum, the Bible is not on trial nor am I obligated to defend it or try to breath life into your lack of faith in it. Have a good day!

.

RESPONSE: In short, you can't disprove my facts, right?

You have shown no facts other than a scribe error. In short, you have shown nothing but opinions and wishful thinking. The scribe error doesn't make it a fact that the Bible can't be trusted. What you are trying to sell as fact is in fact an opinion. Your opinion seems to be that the truth of the Bible's message can't come through because of a scribe's error. This is not true. I hope I have cleared up your confusion what is fact and what is opinion...somehow I doubt it though.

[polonius]

RESPONSE: Alternately, maybe God had nothing to do with writing the Bible. That would be more probable, wouldn't it?

If you'd like to debate that then please feel free to debate the Bible in another forum. In this subforum, the Bible is not on trial nor am I obligated to defend it or try to breath life into your lack of faith in it. Have a good day!

.

RESPONSE: In short, you can't disprove my facts, right?

You have shown no facts other than a scribe error. In short, you have shown nothing but opinions and wishful thinking. The scribe error doesn't make it a fact that the Bible can't be trusted. What you are trying to sell as fact is in fact an opinion. I hope I have cleared up your confusion what is fact and what is opinion...somehow I doubt it though.

RESPONSE: Hardly just an opinion. I have demonstrated a scriptural error made by Jesus as reported by the Gospel. I also demonstrated the contradiction in Jesus' birth date in Matthew and Luke, and the number animals he sent for in Matthew's gospel.

I gather you are not challenging either of these other scriptural errors.

The copyist explanation you attempted regarding the Jesus' quotation of scripture has been demonstrated to be untenable.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Paul (and the other apostles/disciples) might have thought Christ would return in their day. But Christ simply said to keep watch, and that no one knows that day or hour (not even the Son). He spoike of signs to keep watch for, but many of these signs are the BEGINNING of the 'birth pangs', not the end.

Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Interestingly, people have very little trouble recognizing that 'a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign' refers to the generation of people asking for a sign (please keep in mind that this was addressed to those who SHOULD have known better and should have had the faith to hear their God). These ones are all the same generation, regardless of what time period they were born in.

It is the same with those who belong to Christ, those who He has made sons and daughters of God. They are all brothers and sisters, they have the same father.

The point of the verse is to let people know that this generation will not have passed away when all these things happen. At least some of us (who belong to Christ and to God) will still be here on the earth when these things happen.

(probably the same for the wicked generation)


As for Paul's words:

1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

I don't think Paul is saying that Christ is coming while he is still alive. Paul does not know when Christ is coming. But Paul cannot refer to himself as one who has died, because at the time he is writing this, Paul is alive.

We who are alive AT THE COMING OF THE LORD.

So... whoever among us (who belong to Christ) who are alive, at the time that Christ returns; will not precede those who (belong to Christ, but who) will have died at the time Christ returns.


I might phrase it exactly the same today: we who are alive when Christ returns will not precede those who have died.







Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

RESPONSE: Hardly just an opinion. I have demonstrated a scriptural error made by Jesus as reported by the Gospel.

Actually no, you have not.

You can Google this debate and find all the reasons why Mark 2:25 is not really a mistake made by Jesus. Here you can even look all of them up yourself. I even did the search for you to save you time. https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&q=A ... +Ahimelech

I don't have to reinvent the wheel as I am sure you have heard all this before. However, your accusations are not fact. Just because there what seem to be errors or actual scribe errors that doesn't mean the Bible's message is not true. If you want to feel that way that's fine, but just because you feel that the message of Bible isn't true doesn't mean you are right.

[polonius]

RESPONSE: Hardly just an opinion. I have demonstrated a scriptural error made by Jesus as reported by the Gospel.

Actually no, you have not.

You can Google this debate and find all the reasons why Mark 2:25 is not really a mistake made by Jesus. Here you can even look all of them up yourself. I even did the search for you to save you time. https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&q=A ... +Ahimelech

I don't have to reinvent the wheel as I am sure you have heard all this before. However, your accusations are not fact. Just because there what seem to be errors or actual scribe errors that doesn't mean the Bible's message is not true. If you want to feel that way that's fine, but just because you feel that the message of Bible isn't true doesn't mean you are right.

RESPONSE:

Here is the key paragraph from the writing you cited:

In Mark 2.26, as found in Nestle-Aland27, Jesus is reported as saying: ", " " , " - Or, in English, Havent you ever read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions were hungry? How he entered into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the sacred bread that is not lawful for anyone but priests to eat, and also gave it to his companions? (Mark 2:25-26). The fundamental problem with the phrase when Abiathar was high priest is that this incident in Davids life is recorded in but one passage in the OT, 1 Sam 21.1-7.

But there, Ahimelech is mentioned as the priest; Abiathar, his son, would later become high priest, but he is not introduced into the narrative for another chapter (22.20).

Read what the words actually say.

And reread "when Abiathar was high priest"

And I'm wondering if you are ever going to explain Matthew's Jesus riding two animals of different size simultaneously?

And Jesus' ten year gestation documented in Luke 1 and 2?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 48 by polonius.advice]

Let me Google this for you.
https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&q=J ... erent+size

Again, I do not have to defend the Bible in this forum. But I can keep Googling things for you as long as you wish. I don't have reinvent the wheel. All of these arguments have been done to death and your answers are already out there. No need for me to post them again here.

[Monta]

Quote:
[quote="polonius.advice"]
Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.//

I wonder whether there was a appropriate word for 'generation' at the time when Gospels were written. We know the problem with the word 'love'.

Also six days of creation. How long is a day in God's sight.