The Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

How can Jehovah's Witnesses be the "one true church" if they themselves make mistakes and revise their doctrine, dogma and practices?

Exhibit a) before the NWT (New World Translation) of the Bible was published, Jehovah's Witnesses used the American Standard Version (ASV). Both translations honor the name of Jehovah but there are stark differences.

The NWT is the only translation (that I know of) which has Jesus "impaled on a stake" instead of crucified on a cross, as virtually every other translation posits.

The first volume of the NWT was originally released in 1950.

How can JWs be the "only true church" if it was evolving, fallible and subject to revision?

And exhibit b) how can JWs be the only true church with dimly supported and strange doctrines such as the belief that Jesus was Michael the Archangel before the Nativity?

Exhibit c) How can the JWs be the only true church if they falsely predicted that Jesus would return in 1914?

And when that return did not materialized, they revised their prediction and now conveniently claim his return was "invisible".

"One true Church" or fringe sect?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 39 by 2timothy316]
Always with the 1000 years is like a day line! What manner of prophetic significance is this anyway? When something fortold doesn't happen, obviously sceptics will make mention of the fact. It doesn't take any divine revealation to anticipate this development. 2000 years of sceptics mentioning Jesus's non appearance, visible or otherwise hasn't brought him out of hiding. It isn't evidence of anything other than he hasn't returned. And exactly what purpose is there in an invisible, inactive Jesus? What exactly would he be doing from here that he couldn't be doing from heaven? Did Satan throw him down?

[onewithhim]

The NWT is the only translation (that I know of) which has Jesus "impaled on a stake" instead of crucified on a cross, as virtually every other translation posits.

I posted on your earlier question on this point perhaps you missued it, here is the link ifor you would like to read my thoughts on this

Link
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 515#835515

Seems these ideas did not even occur to JWs when they used the ASV. Is impalement vs crucifixion a "new Revelation"?

And still, the NWT is the only translation that denies crucifixion.

OK here's a tougher one. Prove from Scripture that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

And prove that Jesus actually returned in 1914.. and keep it simple please, convoluted arguments are seldom convincing.

You never responded to what I posted about "stake" vs. "cross." It was an objective view on everything involved, and reasons given as to why "stake" was considered as a viable alternative. For some reason you just ignored it, and now tear the whole "stake" thing down. The NWT doesn't deny Jesus' crucifixion. It merely uses "stake" instead of "cross," and it was said that JWs don't consider it anything to argue about.

I have shown why we say Jesus was Michael before he came to Earth and also afterward. Whatever I say is swept under the rug.

Jesus didn't return in 1914. He STARTED RULING in that year, because the Times of the Gentiles ended in that year, according to Bible chronology, which I have explained previously. He is now ruling his true church, guiding them in the preaching work that will continue until God says it is enough. (Matthew 24:14) Then after Armageddon, Jesus will rule the whole Earth.

You are spreading falsehoods about Jehovah's Witnesses, saying we said things we didn't say, and trying to make us look really bad.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 33 by 2timothy316]. The dissent comes from within their own ranks. As to the prophecy of Daniel.

Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.

Revelation 22:7
Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.

Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

Perhaps a retraction of any claims to infallibility Would be in order?

Who is claiming infallibility?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 28 by 2timothy316]
Or perhaps we can roll back this fallible uninspired mistaken concept back to Moses and conclude the whole ridiculous concept is the imagination of men?

Let's say that it is, then what? Do our own thing? Go murder because we think God wants us to?

Your reasoning opens up God's will to anyone and any concept. This is already happening. How is working out so far? Do you watch the news?

Or lets say mankind has the correct way to live life. Who gets to decide that? By way of democracy? Is there a human way of government that can solve all of mankind's problems?

Potentially I think that there is.

But yes, the things you speak about make this potential sit at the starting gate while the starters gun-smoke has long dissipated and the worlds leaders are full throttle assured that the suppression has worked its magic.

I can;t help thinking though that there is some hole in the story?

Sitting staring at the chain holding the gate shut, and relying on some promised event to change that and have you win the race after-all - through a promise attributed to a GOD...tell me (for perhaps I forget) - but does the bible not speak about the antichrist having to do its thing BEFORE Jesus can return to fix the mess the leaders of humanity forced us all to create?

What do those upon the Watchtower have to say about that?

No, the Bible does NOT speak about "the antichrist" doing his thing before Jesus can return. There is a brief discussion going on about this on the thread "Does Salvation Depend on Jesus' Crucifixion?" I have taken that point of view (concerning "the antichrist") apart in my posts #212 and #214, if you would kindly go there.

"The Antichrist" isn't even an individual, and the temple will certainly never be rebuilt on Earth since the Bible says the REAL temple is in heaven, not built by men. (Hebrews 8:1,2)

.

[William]

[Replying to post 44 by onewithhim]

My post does not mention the Antichrist as an individual, so I don't really know why you are implying otherwise- I went to those posts you mentioned, but all I saw there was what appears to be dogma which isn't relative to what I was saying about fixing our own mess rather than hoping in some extraterrestrial type intervention replying to Post 31.

I am most interested in having my questions in Post 40 answered.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 44 by onewithhim]

My post does not mention the Antichrist as an individual, so I don't really know why you are implying otherwise- I went to those posts you mentioned, but all I saw there was what appears to be dogma which isn't relative to what I was saying about fixing our own mess rather than hoping in some extraterrestrial type intervention replying to Post 31.

I am most interested in having my questions in Post 40 answered.

Your post DID mention the Antichrist as an individual, and I WAS answering two of your questions that you asked in Post 40. You asked:

"Does the Bible speak about the antichrist having to do its thing BEFORE Jesus can return to fix the mess...?"

And:

"What does the Watchtower have to say about that?"


And that is exactly what I answered in the posts you say you went to on the other thread.


.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 43 by onewithhim]

Would you say the Bible is infallible?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 44 by onewithhim] Who is the individual in this text?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3New International Version (NIV)

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us"whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter"asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Dont let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

[William]

[Replying to post 44 by onewithhim]

My post does not mention the Antichrist as an individual, so I don't really know why you are implying otherwise- I went to those posts you mentioned, but all I saw there was what appears to be dogma which isn't relative to what I was saying about fixing our own mess rather than hoping in some extraterrestrial type intervention replying to Post 31.

I am most interested in having my questions in Post 40 answered.

Your post DID mention the Antichrist as an individual, and I WAS answering two of your questions that you asked in Post 40. You asked:

"Does the Bible speak about the antichrist having to do its thing BEFORE Jesus can return to fix the mess...?"

And:

"What does the Watchtower have to say about that?"


And that is exactly what I answered in the posts you say you went to on the other thread.


.

Okay - I see the confusion. Usually when I speak of an individual I will speak of a he or she (and usually when the Antichrist is mentioned as an individual it is as a male) but I just said 'it' thinking more along the lines of what was already being spoken of as an attitude.
So in relation to the attitude, (and according to what I am interpreting here) this obviously has to happen before Jesus can return and fix things.

My main concern about the whole belief is that in expecting Jesus to come and fix everything, one might be tempted to believe that this is the only way in which things can be fixed and I have to wonder if the whole things is a story made up to get people compliant by believing that nothing they can do can fix the problem - like a trick by the Antichrist attitude in order to have people complacent in regards to actually doing anything which might help the process of fixing the problems.

I think it is a legitimate concern worth investigating.

That is why I ask those other questions which I am keen to see answered.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 39 by 2timothy316]
Always with the 1000 years is like a day line! What manner of prophetic significance is this anyway? When something fortold doesn't happen, obviously sceptics will make mention of the fact. It doesn't take any divine revealation to anticipate this development. 2000 years of sceptics mentioning Jesus's non appearance, visible or otherwise hasn't brought him out of hiding. It isn't evidence of anything other than he hasn't returned. And exactly what purpose is there in an invisible, inactive Jesus? What exactly would he be doing from here that he couldn't be doing from heaven? Did Satan throw him down?

Whatever you need to tell yourself. Your ridicule and taking no note of his return is clear to me. Which is exactly what Jesus said would happen. "From this moment on, I am telling you before it occurs, so that when it does occur you may believe that I am he." John 13:19.