Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?

[polonius]

Jesus prophecized that the second coming would occur while some of his generation were still alive, but it didn't.

There is some claim that really occurred in 1914. But it didn't. So, what's the claim now?

www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses

The Adventist movement emerged in the 1830s around the predictions of William Miller, who proclaimed that Jesus Christ would return in 1843 or 1844.

When Christ did not return as Miller prophecied, Adventists divided into a number of factions.

During the 1870s, Charles Taze Russell established himself as an independent and controversial Adventist teacher.

He rejected belief in hell as a place of eternal torment and adopted a non-Trinitarian theology that denied the divinity of Jesus. He also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.

So when will Christ's visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth occur?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

Were you once a Witness?

No.

Ever heard of Herbert W. Armstrong?

Yes. I'd get his papers in my door back in the '70s.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

The key is to be devoted to God not a date. I believe Jehovah allows such errors to weed out those that are not truly devoted to Him and loyal to His organisation. For me it's not important that I live to see Jehovahs day only that it comes and that his name be sanctified. I do believe we are in the home stretch but if not, will that mean I will have wasted my life? Not at all.

Dates come and go; God comes and stays with every heart that welcomes Him.

Jesus ruled out date-setting.

It is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Our loyalty is to be to the Father and to His beloved Son, of whom He said, "Listen to him".

God has, not an organisation but an organism, the body of the anointed one who is its head.

It was an organisation that sought to kill that anointed one, and succeeded in doing so. They claimed authority and demanded loyalty.

Organisations do exist today that recognise Jesus as the anointed one, and thus claim authority and expect our loyalty; specifically, Catholic, Mormon, and WT.

Many of us are slow learners, it seems to me.

It has been a long hard fight to free ourselves from wrong teachings and attitudes but Ezekiel foretold an elevated temple that does reflect Jehovahs lofty standards for worship on earth as found practised by Jehovahs Witnesses. There is in my opinion no better place to be. Mistakes are the way we humans learn, as long as we learn and do better then that's fine with me.

It's fine with me too, that we do learn from our mistakes.

The problem is, though, we have to first recognise and accept that what we were or are doing was/is an actual mistake!

Grace and peace to you.

What is "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"? (That tree was God's way of seeing if His creations would respect Him enough to leave it alone. It had nothing to do with Adam receiving knowledge. It symbolized the right of God to say what was good or evil. If Adam and Eve ate the fruit of that tree, they would be declaring to God that they wanted to decide for themselves what was good or evil.)

God has always had an organization. In ancient times it was the nation of Israel. When that nation rejected the Messiah, God's organization became the Christian congregation. It had headquarters in Jerusalem. Today its headquarters happens to be in Warwick, New York. There is a heavenly organization also. God's Kingdom in heaven is very organized. It directs His earthly organization.

Please don't categorize us with Catholics and Mormons. We couldn't be further from those institutions.

JWs always admit mistakes and move on from there. We stopped looking for a date after 1975.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

Were you once a Witness?

No.

Ever heard of Herbert W. Armstrong?

Yes. I'd get his papers in my door back in the '70s.

Ha!

How did you view that paper back in those days?

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

The key is to be devoted to God not a date. I believe Jehovah allows such errors to weed out those that are not truly devoted to Him and loyal to His organisation. For me it's not important that I live to see Jehovahs day only that it comes and that his name be sanctified. I do believe we are in the home stretch but if not, will that mean I will have wasted my life? Not at all.

It has been a long hard fight to free ourselves from wrong teachings and attitudes but Ezekiel foretold an elevated temple that does reflect Jehovahs lofty standards for worship on earth as found practised by Jehovahs Witnesses. There is in my opinion no better place to be. Mistakes are the way we humans learn, as long as we learn and do better then that's fine with me.

Yes, I agree. If I don't see the end that's OK. We couldn't live a better life. Following Jehovah is the best way to live. We are happy, hopeful and protected.

Jehovah's organization has made some mistakes, and it has learned from them and has done better. I don't believe any other religious organization can say the same thing. It seems funny now, but the WT once thought that every Christian was going to heaven. Then they realized that a great crowd was going to live on the earth. The light just keeps getting brighter.

Yes, what was believed way back then, when compared with what is now believed, can seem funny.

What in Revelation tells you the great crowd will live on the earth?

Grace and peace to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 43 by Checkpoint]

THE GREAT CROWD

Most Christian groups believe the earth (or an earth) figures in God's future pupose for the righteous in some way, only Jehovahs Witnesses* believe that millions of people will spend eternity on this our present planet earth as human beings in physical bodies. One support for this conclusion, is the correct understanding of Revelation 7:9 which speaks of a "great crowd" or great "multitude" standing before Christ (The Lamb) and the throne of God.

* to the best of my knowledge

REVELATION 7:9 NLT
After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb.

WHY DO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES BELIEVE THE GREAT CROWD WILL LIVE ON EARTH?

NOTE It should be noted that , perhaps uniquely, Jehovahs Witnesses seek to harmonize all their conclusions with all bible books books. In other words, when a verse is ambiguous or hard to understand we seek to see if other verses even from other books of the bible shed light on a particular thought. We will always favor the interpretation that harmonizes with other books/verses.

#1 The earth has been designated as mankinds home and to destroy it or leave it empty of human life would represent failure on Gods part. (Gen 1:28; Isaiah 45:18)

#2 They are not numbered and are not spoken of as sitting on thrones or ruling so they seem to be a different group to the kings and priests described in Rev 20:6

#3 To attain heavenly life one first has to die, yet the great crowd survive the tribulation which is an event on earth, and are seen attributing that survival to the Lamb. If they were humans on earth, and survived a catastrophic event on earth then logically John was seeing a vision of people on earth.

#4 The great crowd mentioned at Revelation 7:9 are not spoken of (as is the case for the 144,000) as being taken from the earth but standing before the throne, something one does not literally have to be in heaven to do (compare Matthew 25:31, 32)

In view of the above we conclude the Great Crowd are the millions of humans that survive the tribulation and go on to live forever on earth (compare Mattew 5:5).

The road to this present understanding has not been smooth. As most Cnristian groups and individuals still do, we too believed heaven would be inhabited by different "classes" of Christians (those that would rule and others, still in heaven for some reason, but different in some way to the 144,000). This lead to some frankly confusing interpretations. (For more on this see the Sept 15th Watchtower, 2019 p. 28). The simplicity of our present understanding (144,000 kings in heaven, everyone else, including the resurrected dead, on earth) not only better harmonizes with the bible as a whole but is confirmed by millions of people, like myself that have no desire to go to heaven but long to live on this our planet earth restored to its former beauty.

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

Were you once a Witness?

No.

Ever heard of Herbert W. Armstrong?

Yes. I'd get his papers in my door back in the '70s.

Ha!

How did you view that paper back in those days?

Grace and peace to you.

I'm trying to remember......My husband brought in a "Plain Truth" magazine that was in the door, and I flipped out because I thought it was a JW magazine. I was a Southern Baptist and we were taught that JWs are of the Devil. I looked at the magazine, and of course I realized it wasn't a JW magazine. So I relaxed. Anything but JW stuff! But the magazine didn't really interest me. Nothing attracted my attention.

It's ironic, but the JWs attracted my attention when I heard them say that there was no hell-fire.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 43 by Checkpoint]

"What in Revelation tells you that the great crowd will live on the earth?"

Reply:

With the background already covered in the Old Testament, which tells of what the earth will be like during the reign of the Messiah--God's appointed King--such as Isaiah chapter 11, Micah 4:4, and numerous other passages, I knew that God intended for people to live on Earth forever (Psalm 37:9-11, 29 particularly interested me). So Revelation undoubtedly harmonizes with all those scriptures.

I read with interest Rev.5:10 which says that the people that go to heaven will "reign over the earth." (I have to say here that the word in Greek translated "over" in a handful of Bible versions that I have, is usually translated "on" by translators today, since the KJV. That word can be translated as either "on" or "over.") So I'm wondering what will the 144,000 be ruling over? Or WHO? Chapter 7 drew my interest. It describes the 144,000 who will be with the Lamb on heavenly Mt. Zion, and then another group of people "standing before the throne and before the Lamb." This group is apparently not included in the previous group of 144,000 sealed individuals.

One of the elders in heaven said to John, "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Verse 14.) It then occurred to me that these people, of a crowd of unnumbered individuals, were the ones who go through the Great Tribulation on earth, and come out of it unscathed. I think that to "come out" of something, one has to be IN it in the first place. So I considered it nonsense that Christians would be, as I was always taught as a Baptist, taken up to heaven before the G.T.

So it stands to reason that it is these people of the Great Crowd, as well as those resurrected to the earth during the Millennial Reign, that will make up the "nations in the four corners of the earth" which the Devil will attack at the end of the 1,000 years, "to mislead" them and get them to war against Jehovah, Jesus, and their people, on the earth. (Rev.20:7-9) Makes perfect sense to me now.

Then chapter 21 speaks of God's government reigning over the earth, and what glorious peace and happiness there will be.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

Were you once a Witness?

No.

Ever heard of Herbert W. Armstrong?

Yes. I'd get his papers in my door back in the '70s.

Ha!

How did you view that paper back in those days?

Grace and peace to you.

I'm trying to remember......My husband brought in a "Plain Truth" magazine that was in the door, and I flipped out because I thought it was a JW magazine. I was a Southern Baptist and we were taught that JWs are of the Devil. I looked at the magazine, and of course I realized it wasn't a JW magazine. So I relaxed. Anything but JW stuff! But the magazine didn't really interest me. Nothing attracted my attention.

It's ironic, but the JWs attracted my attention when I heard them say that there was no hell-fire.

Most interesting.

Two key phrases: "we were taught that", and "attracted my attention".

Two competing voices. Our life story reveals our choices of voices.

The ones we have heard and the one we hear today.

"JWs are of the devil". Yeah?

"No hell-fire". Little did you then realise, that is what you could have read in "The Plain Truth"!!

Grace and peace be to you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 47 by Checkpoint]

The teaching of no hell-fire might have been in the Plain Truth magazine, but it wasn't presented in a way that caught my attention.

That little blue book JWs had back then---The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life--was arranged in such a way that I honed in on the subject of hell-fire very quickly.


I learned later that Armstrong taught some of the things JWs taught, but I think he held on to many things that Russell may have originally taught that were discarded by JWs. Am I wrong or do I remember that Armstrong was at one time a JW?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 47 by Checkpoint]

The teaching of no hell-fire might have been in the Plain Truth magazine, but it wasn't presented in a way that caught my attention.

That little blue book JWs had back then---The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life--was arranged in such a way that I honed in on the subject of hell-fire very quickly.

Yes, who and/or what catches our attention can make or break a life, as it plays such a key role in the decisions we make.

Is the voice we hear the voice of him of whom the Father said, "L9sten to him", or is it the voice of a stranger, of an angel of light?

Decisions, decisions!

I learned later that Armstrong taught some of the things JWs taught, but I think he held on to many things that Russell may have originally taught that were discarded by JWs. Am I wrong or do I remember that Armstrong was at one time a JW?

No, he was never a JW, and did not get his teachings from them.

He had been an unbeliever, in what he called "the advertising business". Then something happened that really caught his attention.

His wife had become a Sabbath-keeper"!

They clashed. She was determined to continue doing so. He was equally determined to prove, from the Bible, that she was wrong, and that Sunday was the Sabbath.

He was shocked to find that it was he that was wrong, and thus he began going to church and studying the Scriptures, and the rest is history.

He probably got his hell-fire teachings from the SDA, as they are strong advocates of that view, just as you and I are.