What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

[Checkpoint]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

[JehovahsWitness]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

If Christ and God are on the earth, and hell is being away from God, does this mean that the angels that remain in heaven are in "hell"?

And who rules the heavens since it's been vacated by Jesus and God?

[JehovahsWitness]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

So the holy ones will be "caught up to meet Jesus" in the air, as he is coming down to earth and they will not go on to heaven but come straight back down to live and rule on earth? What's the point of going up into the air if its only to return to the earth. Isn't this a little like taking your car to the end of the road, only to return to park in front of your house?

Why do they need a new body if they never died and are only going to continue living on the earth (after a short sejour to meet Jesus (and God) in the air, who themselves are on their way to earth anyway? This is like being given a new body just because you have taken a flight in a plane.

Please ask for clarification if need be.

Need be.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 39 by tam]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

Who are they ruling OVER? I take it that the faithful are all kings ruling with Jesus and God. The wicked are no more (Psalms 37: 10, 11) so who are the subjects of this rule?

[tam]

When Christ returns, He will bring with Him those (Christians) who have died from the first century up until the time that He returns. These ones who have died are currently under the altar (in heaven) awaiting the first resurrection.

Please ask for clarification if need be.

Your post makes no sense.

The holy ones that died, were brought back to life in heaven, kept in a specific location (alive) in heaven and are awaiting... a resurrection? If they are alive in heaven what is "the first resurrection" these individuals, who are currently alive, are awaiting?

JW

The holy ones who die before Christ returns go under the altar (as opposed to going to the world of the dead - sheol/hades). They are still asleep, but their spirit goes under the altar in heaven and not to sheol/hades. Just as Stephen cried out before he died:

"Lord [Jesus] receive my spirit..."

Stephen was not talking about some active force, but rather his own spirit/himself.

These ones are resurrected at the first resurrection, and Christ brings them with him when He returns; and those of us who are still alive are caught up to them in the air.


Paul does make a distinction between those of us who are alive and those of us who have fallen asleep in Christ, at the time Christ returns and brings them. Therefore, some were asleep and some are still alive, at that time.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

If Christ and God are on the earth, and hell is being away from God, does this mean that the angels that remain in heaven are in "hell"?

Of course not. I'm not sure where you are getting your definition of hell to begin with. BUT, please note that I said the Kingdom is established upon the earth, that Christ and His own reign upon the earth (as is written in Revelation). That does not mean that God left the spiritual realm. God is all in all. That also does not mean that Christ (and us) cannot enter the spiritual realm and the physical realm.

Christ said that His sheep will come in and go out and find pasture. His sheep may move between the spiritual and the earthly realms... as Adam could do originally (restoring things); as the angels can do now (we will be like the angels, yes?).

And who rules the heavens since it's been vacated by Jesus and God?

Christ has all authority in heaven and on earth.

No one said the spiritual realm has been vacated.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

So the holy ones will be "caught up to meet Jesus" in the air, as he is coming down to earth and they will not go on to heaven but come straight back down to live and rule on earth? What's the point of going up into the air if its only to return to the earth. Isn't this a little like taking your car to the end of the road, only to return to park in front of your house?

Paul does not lay out every detail. We are just speaking about this particular verse. But we are caught up to meet them in the air; changed (given the new body... so that we now have the spirit body, the white robe, that may move in and out of the spiritual realm). This takes place in a twinkling (and I think this is also the time of the union/marriage between the Bride and the Lamb.) But the New Jerusalem (the Bride) also comes down out of heaven and she reigns upon the earth with Christ, a thousand years.

Why do they need a new body if they never died and are only going to continue living on the earth

Because this body (the long garment of skin given to Adam - which represents this flesh and blood) has sin and death in it. It cannot enter the spiritual realm, and it will die. The new body (the white robe - which represents the spirit body) has LIFE in it; and it can come into spiritual realm. Which realm we will move in and out OF. As Christ said we would. He is the gate, and His sheep will come in and go out and find pasture.

(after a short sejour to meet Jesus (and God) in the air, who themselves are on their way to earth anyway?

God is not on His way to the earth at that time. God is in the spiritual realm.


Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Because this body (the long garment of skin given to Adam - which represents this flesh and blood) has sin and death in it. It cannot enter the spiritual realm, and it will die.

But you said they are not going to enter into the spirit realm, they are joining Jesus to rule on earth.

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

Or are you suggesting Jesus and God get halfway to earth, pick up the remaining holy ones, up, go BACK to heaven only to leave heaven (again) and finish their journey to earth? What's the point in that?

This is making no sense.

JW

[tam]

[Replying to post 39 by tam]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

Who are they ruling OVER? I take it that the faithful are all kings ruling with Jesus and God. The wicked are no more (Psalms 37: 10, 11) so who are the subjects of this rule?

The sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable). These are people of the nations (who are not Christians) who did good to even a least one of Christ's brothers; thereby doing good to Christ (unknowingly).

These sheep may be atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc, etc. I'm not going to lay out the parable; anyone can read that for themselves. Christ invites them into the Kingdom, as subjects of that Kingdom, and they too receive eternal life, and the promise of healing, no more tears or mourning, etc. These ones have proven that the law (of love) is written upon their hearts; revealing this by what they DO.

They may not know Christ, but He may knows them by what they DO.


And while we who are in Christ have Christ as a covering (so that our sins are covered over and forgiven), these ones have a covering of sorts as well: love.

Love covers over a multitude of sins.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

(and I think this is also the time of the union/marriage between the Bride and the Lamb.) But the New Jerusalem (the Bride) also comes down out of heaven and she reigns upon the earth with Christ, a thousand years.

Who is "the bride" (the New Jerusalem)?

[JehovahsWitness]

These sheep may be atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc, etc. [...] too receive eternal life,

I take it that "eternal" means longer than 1000 years, WHERE will (the former atheists, Buddhists ect) live for all eternity? Where will they be after the thousand year reign?