Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:39 am

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:37 pm

[quote="bjs"]
[Replying to Elijah John]

Another possibility is that the debate seems futile. We have gone round after round on this one. Even when we include the works attributed to Paul and John, so we have passages that flat out say, â€œJesus is God,â€� then there are still people who insist â€œThat doesnâ€™t mean that Jesus is God.â€� If we cut out roughly half the NT then that would certainly make it more challenging.

However, the general evidence that they synoptic writers believed that Jesus is God is pretty well known.
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

RESPONSE: Perhaps you have overlooked that none of Jewish Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah were fulfilled by Jesus. And the Jewish Messiah wasn't to be divine.

Obviously, if the original Christians began to claim that Jesus was God, they would have been labeled heretics and excluded from the Jewish synagogues. This happened in about 85 ad and we had a "parting of the ways."

See the 12th Benediction of the Jews.

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

But it never happened!

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:35 pm

The Tanager wrote:The Trinity does not receive authority from another.

I neither know nor care what " the trinity" does or does not do; I think its trash theology.

If however you are arguing that Jesus before, during or after his life on earth has been or is, equal to his Father who is depicted as Almighty, feel free to provide the scriptural evidence.

JW

Post by **The Tanager** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:31 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:I neither know nor care what " the trinity" does or does not do; I think its trash theology.

If however you are arguing that Jesus before, during or after his life on earth has been or is, equal to his Father who is depicted as Almighty, feel free to provide the scriptural evidence.

Haven't you been talking to me about it already? We were talking about Mark 2 and what it says about Jesus. I didn't talk about it as a verse showing the Trinity to be true. That passage shows a Jesus who claims to be able to do something the Tanakh taught only God can do. The teachers of the law recognized this and accused Jesus of blasphemy and Jesus does not correct them. Yes, this shows Jesus being equal to the Father. And there are many other passages. You even started to respond to the various ones I offered in another thread, "Which is risker?" started by Elijah John, but stopped.

John 20:19-23 was brought up to counter the above understanding of Mark 2, but it doesn't. The disciples can only forgive sins because they have the Holy Spirit breathed into them (and breathed by the Son, not the Father, at that). God is living inside of them and where God is, there is the power to forgive sins. It's actually the passage brought up in this thread by a non-Trinitarian, that took my part of this discussion towards Trinitarianism.

You then critiqued my understanding by talking about John 3, 5, 7 and 12, and Matthew 11 and 28 to which I responded in post 39, some of which also widen the discussion towards Trinitarianism. I'm fine just talking about Jesus being God. I'm not bringing in the other passages to the discussion. When passages are brought up, I'm going to address them as fully as I can, looking at context and see where the passages take us, not where a certain side wants the discussion to go.

So, feel free to continue talking about the scriptural evidence, responding to the various points I made in that last post or this one. If you are right that I've got a 'trash theology,' then let's keep talking about the scriptural evidence and share your views. Or focus only on whether Jesus is God or not according to actual scriptural passages.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:04 am

The Tanager wrote: That passage shows a Jesus who claims to be able to do something the Tanakh taught only God can do.

Which verse in the Hebrew scripture (The "old Testament/ The Tanakh) states that only God can forgive sins?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:14 am

The Tanager wrote:You even started to respond to the various ones I offered in another thread, "Which is risker?" started by Elijah John, but stopped.

I stopped because I thought I'd addresses all the scriptures brought up but if I did miss one you could if you like point out which scripture is missing.

Here is the INDEX for easy reference.

INDEX Trinity so called "proof texts" DEBUNKED
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 594#936594

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:27 am

So the point you are making (correct me if I'm wrong) is that ....

when the disciples had holy spirit and thus the authority to forgive sins they were not Almighty God .... but when the Jesus had the same holy spirit to forgive sins he was Jesus Almighty God.

Does that about sum up your point?

INDEX Trinity so called "proof texts" DEBUNKED
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 594#936594

FURTHER READING

Full scripture index
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... index.html

Trinity "proof" texts debunked
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/trinity_prooftexts.htm

Post by **The Tanager** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:42 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:Which verse in the Hebrew scripture (The "old Testament/ The Tanakh) states that only God can forgive sins?

That's one way we could come to the belief that only God can forgive sins. Micah 7:18 may be saying that. It reads "Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance?..."

But even if you understand that passage differently there is another way to come to the belief that only God can forgive sins in the Tanakh. At no time does anyone but God forgive sins in the Tanakh. Of course, we forgive each other for the damage done by the other, but those same sins are also against God. Everyone in the Tanakh therefore seeks God's forgiveness as well. There is no instance, to my knowledge, where God's forgiveness is not also (and ultimately) needed in the Tanakh. If other people can forgive sins in that sense, then we should have verses pointing to that.

JehovahsWitness wrote:I stopped because I thought I'd addresses all the scriptures brought up but if I did miss one you could if you like point out which scripture is missing.

Here is the INDEX for easy reference.

You definitely did not in that thread. You responded to 2 of the 14 passages I pointed to. As to your linked conversations, no thanks. If you want to have a conversation with me, then don't just post links to other conversations you've had with others. If you are tired of repeating yourself, then stop entering discussions concerning those passages.

JehovahsWitness wrote:So the point you are making (correct me if I'm wrong) is that ....

when the disciples had holy spirit and thus the authority to forgive sins they were not Almighty God .... but when the Jesus had the same holy spirit to forgive sins he was Jesus Almighty God.
Does that about sum up your point?

No, that's not my point. I don't think they have the Holy Spirit in the same way. John does not show Jesus not having the Holy Spirit and then receiving it. John states that Jesus was eternally God (1:1). I don't think Mark shows Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit at any time, either. Jesus' baptism (in Mark 1 and John 1) does not say Jesus is receiving the Holy Spirit for the first time; it's portrayed as a sign, much differently than the disciples initial receiving of the Holy Spirit.

My main point is that the verses you and tigger2 brought up (John 3:35, 5:16-30, 7:16, 20:19-23; Matthew 11:25-29, 28:16-20) do not contradict Jesus being God, as is pointed to by Mark 2. And they actually give us more reason to believe in the "trash theology" of Trinitarianism, as a secondary point.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:00 am

The Tanager wrote:You definitely did not in that thread.

So can you tell me the exact scripture I did not response to in that thread, for example, you could say : "JW you didn't respond to the point made in John 8:58 ( that's just an example of what I'm looking for) ..."

Thanks

JW

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:10 am

The Tanager wrote: I don't think they have the Holy Spirit in the same way. John does not show Jesus not having the Holy Spirit and then receiving it. .... I don't think Mark shows Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit at any time, either. Jesus' baptism (in Mark 1 and John 1) does not say Jesus is receiving the Holy Spirit for the first time....

So, would it be fair to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that ....

The disciples could forgive sin and not BE Almighty God because the holy spirit (which gave them this authority) was given to them, but Jesus was never given holy spirit, he always had it so when HE forgives sins it's proof he is ALMIGHTY God. If so, it seems to me (again correct me anytime) that your whole argument is essentially...

Point #1
Jesus always had holy spirit, so he is God, the disciples didn't (they were given it) so they are not God.

Point #2
Since Jesus always had holy spirit, he has always had the authority to forgive sins.

Do the above two points sum up your position?

JW

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:31 am

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

JESUS: AUTHORITY NOT ABSOLUTE

Jesus did speak and act with an authority hitherto unseen on earth. The question is, was this because Jesus was Almighty God himself or because He was given that authority? Note what the following Catholic Bibles have to say:

Code:
JERUSALEM BIBLE

Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing -- John 5:19

Code:

JOHN 3:35
"The Father loves the Son and has GIVEN all things into His hand.

MATTHEW 11:27
"All things have been HANDED OVER to Me by My Father;

MATTHEW 28:18-20
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been GIVEN TO ME in heaven and on earth. teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
CAPs Mine

There are absolutely no verses in the entire bible that explicitly or implicitly implies that YHWH (The Father) received any of his authority at any time from another source or that he cannot act alone or independently. The scriptures unfailingly and exclusively identify YAHWEH alone as the ALMIGHTY (omnipotent) God.

Two points:
1) Do you acknowledge that the passages you quoted reflect that Christ's power and authority are equal to the Father? If not, why not?

John 5:19 - I notice you only quoted the part of the verse that reflects your theology:

Jesus gave them this answer: â€œVery truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing..."

what does the rest of the verse say:

"because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

That's quite a startling claim, Jesus does whatever the Father does. I agree that the role of Jesus is distinct from the Father yet there is nothing that the Father does Jesus cannot do.

Similarly, Matthew 28:18-20 clearly states all authority in heaven and earth belongs to Jesus. If there is no authority that exists that hasn't been given to him - then his authority is equal with the Father.

2) I think your argument is that in order for Jesus to be considered God he would have to fulfill exactly the same role as the Father. This shows a lack of understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. You're attempting to refute a form of modalism.

An analogy used in Scripture to describe the relationship between the Father and Son is the relationship between males and females. For example

"And God went on to create the man in his image, in Godâ€™s image he created him; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27)

Males and females are distinct yet share the same human nature. They equally and yet distinctly reveal the image of God.

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:2)

This diversity in roles but yet unity in nature is stated by Paul regarding both humanity and God.