How do we define the umpardonable sin?

[marco]

In Matthew 12:31 we have: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.�

Was Jesus just being dramatic here, trying to frighten his listeners? What on earth is "blasphemy against the Spirit"? Did Jesus, somewhere, elaborate on this dramatic statement?


And in what way is such blasphemy worse than, say, mass murder?

[marco]

No, but rather because we are sinners, we are prone to misconstrue.

Were this so then advancement would notably be in the hands of the holiest. In the English Civil War this idea attracted Cromwell who set up a pious parliament under Praisegod Barebones, but it proved a disaster. Those with good intentions seem more likely to find the highway to hell.

Certainly, I am not claiming for myself any "special insight." And in fact, I would say if you run into anyone and in the course of conversation they do claim any special insight, my personal advice would be to (politely) withdraw from said conversation (or at least listen politely and then subsequently dismiss it summarily).

I do that already, PinSeeker. Those who display divine insight don't trouble to claim it: they display it in their discourse, very often in the form of biblical quotations to which their insight has given them special access.

God said what He meant, and meant what He said; insufficiency or lack of clarity is not an issue.

God said nothing; the reporters of Jesus did.

The Holy Spirit is not "dangerous," but a Helper.

He apparently supplies wisdom, with six other gifts, to those who are confirmed. I was keen to see the effect on a classmate who was notoriously dim-witted. I engaged him in post-confirmation chat and he seemed to have been impervious to the Holy Spirit, which was a pity.


Inspiration may come from falling apples or persistent spiders but I don't think the Holy Spirit does much for human advancement. I wonder if anyone has ever measured the success of his gift giving. Or is it unpardonably impolite to make such a suggestion?

Go well, my friend.

[PinSeeker]

No, but rather because we are sinners, we are prone to misconstrue.

Were this so then advancement would notably be in the hands of the holiest.

Right you are. God is in charge. Thank... well, thank God.

Those with good intentions seem more likely to find the highway to hell.

If their intentions are not of God, they are most certainly doomed to failure. God’s purposes cannot be thwarted. Psalm 2 is very instructive here.

Certainly, I am not claiming for myself any "special insight." And in fact, I would say if you run into anyone and in the course of conversation they do claim any special insight, my personal advice would be to (politely) withdraw from said conversation (or at least listen politely and then subsequently dismiss it summarily).

I do that already, PinSeeker. Those who display divine insight don't trouble to claim it: they display it in their discourse, very often in the form of biblical quotations to which their insight has given them special access.

Again, there is no such thing as “special access.� This is actually what cultists claim. This is actually what a cult does, what makes it a cult. No, we all have the same access; what God has said He has said to all. There are many here and elsewhere who would claim a clearer understanding of various things scriptural than others, and I would count myself among them. But Marco, you would make that very same claim. It’s just as evident in your discourse.

God said what He meant, and meant what He said; insufficiency or lack of clarity is not an issue.

God said nothing; the reporters of Jesus did.

Right, God spoke — and still speaks — through them. The “reporters� spoke and wrote, for sure, but it was God, via His Spirit, working in them so that they would will and work according to His purpose and good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 is very instructive, here.

The Holy Spirit is not "dangerous," but a Helper.

He apparently supplies wisdom, with six other gifts, to those who are confirmed.

Well, the spiritual gifts, of which wisdom is one (there are actually nine) are distributed to all Christians in varying degrees and measures according to God’s will. “Confirmation, � much like outward baptism, is a work of man and is really of no consequence.

I was keen to see the effect on a classmate who was notoriously dim-witted. I engaged him in post-confirmation chat and he seemed to have been impervious to the Holy Spirit, which was a pity.

Yeah, not surprising.

Inspiration may come from falling apples or persistent spiders but I don't think the Holy Spirit does much for human advancement.

You’re more than welcome to your opinion.

I wonder if anyone has ever measured the success of his gift giving.

I wouldn’t recommend chasing the wind. The wind comes and goes where it wishes, and we do not know from whence it came or to whence it goes. So it is with the Spirit...

Or is it unpardonably impolite to make such a suggestion?

No, just kind of ridiculous.

Go well, my friend.

Same to you, my friend. Grace and peace to you.

[marco]

Or is it unpardonably impolite to make such a suggestion?

No, just kind of ridiculous.

Some of the greatest discoveries come from the realms of the ridiculous. If we say that the Holy Spirit imparts: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord then I don't see how it is ridiculous to look for evidence of what has been given.

As a boy I was firmly convinced that the host in my mouth had by some miraculous metamorphosis become the body of Christ. The miracle was not transubstantiation, but my ability to believe. One may smile at this dogma, but there's no great difference between that and thinking a Holy Spirit flies around offering presents, becoming offended when people blaspheme against him.

I think Christ was being dramatic in talking about unpardonable sins: too much Scripture and not enough play. Such a pity there was no Plato around to pose appropriate questions. Go well, PinSeeker.

[PinSeeker]

Some of the greatest discoveries come from the realms of the ridiculous.

No doubt, but this is not what you were talking about, and thus not what I was speaking to. You were suggesting "measuring the Spirit's success in gift-giving." We can look at people and make judgments regarding how successful they are at doing what they do, but this has nothing to do with the Spirit's "success" or lack thereof. Biblically, we know that each Christian has gifts that differ according to the grace given to us by God (Romans 12:6), so the only thing we can know about the Spirit's work is that He always accomplishes what God the Father has purposed. In that sense, He is 100 percent effective. So, no "study" necessary; such would be ridiculous, not only because it's immeasurable, also but because we already know. Well... those who believe God and take Him at His Word, anyway.

If we say that the Holy Spirit imparts: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord then I don't see how it is ridiculous to look for evidence of what has been given.

Sure, but if we don't see evidence of this or that spiritual gift in this or that Christian, it is not indicative of any "lack of success" on the part of the Spirit, but possibly evidence that this or that Christian is not gifted in this or that particular way, or purposely gifted to a lesser degree in this or that particular way -- or possibly that this or that Christian is not really a heart-regenerate Christian at all.

As a boy I was firmly convinced that the host in my mouth had by some miraculous metamorphosis become the body of Christ. The miracle was not transubstantiation, but my ability to believe. One may smile at this dogma, but there's no great difference between that and thinking a Holy Spirit flies around offering presents, becoming offended when people blaspheme against him.

There's a lot to laugh about here... The thoughts of a child are indeed funny, quite often. The Holy Spirit offended... The Holy Spirit a "Santa Claus" or "Father Christmas"... LOL! You're indeed a witty fellow, Marco.

I think Christ was being dramatic in talking about unpardonable sins: too much Scripture and not enough play.

At the risk of sounding like a broken phonograph, you're welcome to your own thoughts and... wisdom...

Such a pity there was no Plato around to pose appropriate questions.

Like Nicademas (John 3)? Or the woman at the well (John 4)? Or the Pharisees (various places in the Gospels)? Yes, I rather think a conversation with Plato, or Aristotle, or... Christopher Hitchens or Stephen Hawking... would have been much the same; they would have been at a loss.

Go well, PinSeeker.

Again, much the same to you, Marco. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

In Matthew 12:31 we have: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.�

Was Jesus just being dramatic here, trying to frighten his listeners? What on earth is "blasphemy against the Spirit"? Did Jesus, somewhere, elaborate on this dramatic statement?

And in what way is such blasphemy worse than, say, mass murder?

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)

Blasphemy is the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God:

And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? (Luke 5:20-21)

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:31-33)

So Jesus was accused of blasphemy which is defined as a man assuming the qualities of God.

We can blaspheme God the Father or God the Son and be forgiven. What is the difference between them and God the Holy Ghost?

The Holy Ghost or Comforter was not sent to Christians until Jesus departed the earth. Jesus spoke the following to the apostles shortly after his resurrection:

And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Acts 1:4-5)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

Let us consider why the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and placed angels on the earth as caretakers under supervision of the archangel Satan. However, Satan wanted more power. He wanted to be like the most high God:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Not satisfied being an archangel, Satan desired to be like the most High God. So he rebelled and attempted to usurp the power and authority of God. Satan thus committed blasphemy. God then created man a little lower than the angels during the Genesis re-creation of the earth.

Man is mortal but can become equal unto the angels when born again as a spirit at or after the Second Coming of Christ. Once man is born again as a spiritual body, he will be immortal and live forever. These new angels being created from mortal men and women will then assume the duties of the angels on earth who rebelled against God.

If immortal replacements are being created from mankind to replace the rebels, then certainly one characteristic which they must not possess is that quality which caused the originals to fail!

The original crew committed blasphemy against the Word, the creator of the earth. They rebelled against His creation and failed in their responsibility as earthly caretakers.

The current day-to-day representative assigned to aid Christians on the earth is the Holy Ghost.

Thus, the one unpardonable sin which man must not commit is this similar sin of blasphemy against the earthly representative of God, the Holy Ghost!

Thus, any man who commits blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven.

God does not desire to create more immortal spirits with the same character flaw which caused the originals to fail!

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 45 by myth-one.com]

So God created flawed beings on purpose so they would rebel?

[marco]

Man is mortal but can become equal unto the angels when born again as a spirit at or after the Second Coming of Christ. Once man is born again as a spiritual body, he will be immortal and live forever. These new angels being created from mortal men and women will then assume the duties of the angels on earth who rebelled against God.

This is beautifully imaginative speculation. Can dust be magically sprinkled with immortality so that it is finite at one end and infinite at the other. Fascinating! I would like to see the text where these duties are assigned to supermen. Is it a paid occupation or just a labour of love, supervising perfection? Pourquoi?

The current day-to-day representative assigned to aid Christians on the earth is the Holy Ghost.

Indeed. How prosaic. And condemning this as utter nonsense no doubt is unpardonable.

God does not desire to create more immortal spirits with the same character flaw which caused the originals to fail!

Does he not? Has he told someone this? And why, in the first place, did he create that character flaw? That was remiss of him.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 45 by myth-one.com]

So God created flawed beings on purpose so they would rebel?

God created everything that was ever created, and everything that God created was good.

However, most of us would agree that sin is definitely bad. Therefore, one might ask, "Where did sin come from?" Since sin is not good, God did not create sin.

What God did create was freedom of choice. Angels and man were created with freedom of choice. Is this good? Yes, because God created it.

Without the ability to choose, we would simply be robots repeating the same actions to every similar situation.

So freedom of choice is a job requirement allowing angels and man to perform their responsibilities of caring for the earth.

They can respond to situations, evaluate the possibilities, and choose the best solution to maintain the earth in good condition.

God also created laws or commandments which the beings He created should obey. Are laws good? Yes, God created them. Without laws there would be anarchy and chaos.

Sin is disobeying God's laws. God did not create the sins. God created angels and man with freedom of choice and gave them laws to live by.

They can choose between good and evil. That is, between obeying or disobeying God's laws.

Angels and man then created sin by choosing to violate God's laws.

[PinSeeker]

Uh-oh. Myth-one is back. Everybody duck!

Just hackin' at ya, Mythie.

[myth-one.com]

Uh-oh. Myth-one is back. Everybody duck!

Just hackin' at ya, Mythie.

No one cares.