A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:
This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."
The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:
Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."
Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:
Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.
Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)
So questions for debate:
Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?
Does God change his mind?
Moderator: Moderators
-
OnceConvinced
- Savant
- Posts: 8969
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
- Location: New Zealand
- Has thanked: 50 times
- Been thanked: 67 times
- Contact:
Does God change his mind?
Post #1Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #431[Replying to post 424 by Danmark]
[center]
I do not write statements like this one[/center]
It's a self-contradictory statement.
As soon as God would UTTER it, he has CHANGED from the state of not having uttered it.
Dumb as a tubful of toe nail clippings, that statement.
[center]
I do not write statements like this one[/center]
I have to agree that the STATEMENT is quite absurd.Danmark wrote:
To attempt to claim that "I, the lord, change not" means in fact he does change, is absurd.
It's a self-contradictory statement.
As soon as God would UTTER it, he has CHANGED from the state of not having uttered it.
Dumb as a tubful of toe nail clippings, that statement.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #432[Replying to post 430 by Joe1950]
God knows everything like we know our heartbeats . We don't know how and can't make it start or stop at will. but we know it. We know our hair grows but we can't control it or make it grow faster. God's mind is the way it is.
God knows everything like we know our heartbeats . We don't know how and can't make it start or stop at will. but we know it. We know our hair grows but we can't control it or make it grow faster. God's mind is the way it is.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #433[Replying to post 432 by dio9]
[center]
Let's pretend that God exists, and then let's pretend that I know what he thinks[/center]
Who knows, right?
But people sure like to PRETEND that they know the mind of the god they can't even prove to themselves exists.
Wow.....
Pretend, pretend, pretend.
And believers believe so SERIOUSLY, too.
But when I pretend, I call it just fun.
Some pretenders cut off HEADS of infidels.
That's not what a cat calls fun.
[center]
Let's pretend that God exists, and then let's pretend that I know what he thinks[/center]
It might be perfectly evil, but it's just the way that it is.dio9 wrote:
God knows everything like we know our heartbeats . We don't know how and can't make it start or stop at will. but we know it. We know our hair grows but we can't control it or make it grow faster. God's mind is the way it is.
Who knows, right?
But people sure like to PRETEND that they know the mind of the god they can't even prove to themselves exists.
Wow.....
Pretend, pretend, pretend.
And believers believe so SERIOUSLY, too.
But when I pretend, I call it just fun.
Some pretenders cut off HEADS of infidels.
That's not what a cat calls fun.
-
Joe1950
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #434Walmart sells a number of products that can help with hair growth. Rogaine,Viviscal,Hairfluence, HairCare, Crece pelo to name a few. While god desires that we lose our hair, science says "No". And for any underendowed ladies out there I remind you old saying: What god has forgotten Remember with cotton". For uninspired men there is Cialis or Viagra. Science wins again.dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 430 by Joe1950]
God knows everything like we know our heartbeats . We don't know how and can't make it start or stop at will. but we know it. We know our hair grows but we can't control it or make it grow faster. God's mind is the way it is.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #435[Replying to post 429 by marco]
Well, as we just discussed, that is an Aunt Fanny claim on your part. If that is what you hold, you are going to have to reject just about every book on the planet, because I don't know of any that can claim to be inerrant, just as I don't know of any persons who aren't fallible and sinful. And you are going to reject any and all of history, because it has been said that history is merely gossip. And you are going to have to write off as pure myth all the major figures in history, as I don't know of any who haven't led to controversy and have had highly contradictory claims made about them.
I didn't say you couldn't learn anything from Greek myths. Obviously, you can. Myths are important. They aren't just pure fabrications. They always have a factual basis. In fact, I think fiction may be a greater doorway to the truth than just citing mere facts, reading dull, boring reports. Nobody seemed to care a hoot about conditions in meat-packing plants, despite all sorts of published reports, until Sinclair Lewis published "The Jungle."
Well, as we just discussed, that is an Aunt Fanny claim on your part. If that is what you hold, you are going to have to reject just about every book on the planet, because I don't know of any that can claim to be inerrant, just as I don't know of any persons who aren't fallible and sinful. And you are going to reject any and all of history, because it has been said that history is merely gossip. And you are going to have to write off as pure myth all the major figures in history, as I don't know of any who haven't led to controversy and have had highly contradictory claims made about them.
I didn't say you couldn't learn anything from Greek myths. Obviously, you can. Myths are important. They aren't just pure fabrications. They always have a factual basis. In fact, I think fiction may be a greater doorway to the truth than just citing mere facts, reading dull, boring reports. Nobody seemed to care a hoot about conditions in meat-packing plants, despite all sorts of published reports, until Sinclair Lewis published "The Jungle."
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #436[Replying to post 428 by Danmark]
True, many have claimed that Malachi is claiming God is wholly immutable. However, that is not a full reading of the text and therefore not a full account of God here. As I explained in another post, "I, the Lord, change not" means God enjoys a fixity of purpose, and in that fixity doe not vary. But rather than denying all change in God, such a fixity of purpose demands it. "Return to me , that I might return to you" means if we change in such-and-such a way, God will change accordingly.
When you talk about theologians playing fast and loose with Scripture, you need to specify what theologians and what their claims were. Classical theists, who have used Malachi to support their view that God is wholly immutable, certainly would be an example in my book, for the reasons I just stated above.
True, many have claimed that Malachi is claiming God is wholly immutable. However, that is not a full reading of the text and therefore not a full account of God here. As I explained in another post, "I, the Lord, change not" means God enjoys a fixity of purpose, and in that fixity doe not vary. But rather than denying all change in God, such a fixity of purpose demands it. "Return to me , that I might return to you" means if we change in such-and-such a way, God will change accordingly.
When you talk about theologians playing fast and loose with Scripture, you need to specify what theologians and what their claims were. Classical theists, who have used Malachi to support their view that God is wholly immutable, certainly would be an example in my book, for the reasons I just stated above.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #437[Replying to post 423 by Danmark]
Your last statement requires some qualification. In classical theism, the traditional Judeo-Christian model of picture of what God is like in his own nature, the reigning doctrine of God historically, God was viewed as immutable in all respects, true. However, starting in the last century, especially in the 40's, that concept of God has been challenged and is undergoing a major face lift in many Judeo-Christian theological circles. So your statement holds for the past, but definitely not today.
Your last statement requires some qualification. In classical theism, the traditional Judeo-Christian model of picture of what God is like in his own nature, the reigning doctrine of God historically, God was viewed as immutable in all respects, true. However, starting in the last century, especially in the 40's, that concept of God has been challenged and is undergoing a major face lift in many Judeo-Christian theological circles. So your statement holds for the past, but definitely not today.
-
Danmark
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 12697
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #438I agree. Many Christian theologians have 'thrown in the towel' on this issue. They understand quite well, as I have argued, that despite its pronouncements to the contrary, the idea of an immutable God is inconsistent with Christian scripture.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 423 by Danmark]
Your last statement requires some qualification. In classical theism, the traditional Judeo-Christian model of picture of what God is like in his own nature, the reigning doctrine of God historically, God was viewed as immutable in all respects, true. However, starting in the last century, especially in the 40's, that concept of God has been challenged and is undergoing a major face lift in many Judeo-Christian theological circles. So your statement holds for the past, but definitely not today.
Still, we are left with the idea that a god, 'the very ground of being' according to Paul Tillich, can change over time. This is a major challenge to the idea of an eternal, omniscient god. All of this is neatly resolved when one recognizes and admits the obvious:
The Bible is an effort by man to understand God rather than a text delivered to man by God.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #439[Replying to post 438 by Danmark]
I'm curious. Do you have problems with the notion that God changes? I mean, the fact that God changes does not mean God is not eternal. It all depends on what aspects of God you are talking about.
Omniscience requires some qualification. Traditionally, it was assumed God knows the future in all detail as God has predestined it all. Biblically, that is a suspicious notion, as there is more than one passage where the future if iffy for God. Theologically, it is questionable. If we have genuine freedom, then its up to us to decide. God cannot decide for us. And until we decide, it's all up for grabs. Hence, God, as omniscient, knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibilities, not decided matters of fact. The future is open-ended, indeterminate, both for ourselves and for God.
I'm curious. Do you have problems with the notion that God changes? I mean, the fact that God changes does not mean God is not eternal. It all depends on what aspects of God you are talking about.
Omniscience requires some qualification. Traditionally, it was assumed God knows the future in all detail as God has predestined it all. Biblically, that is a suspicious notion, as there is more than one passage where the future if iffy for God. Theologically, it is questionable. If we have genuine freedom, then its up to us to decide. God cannot decide for us. And until we decide, it's all up for grabs. Hence, God, as omniscient, knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibilities, not decided matters of fact. The future is open-ended, indeterminate, both for ourselves and for God.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #440It would have been helpful had you made the subject of this sentence the actual statement that you think is "an Aunt Fanny" statement instead of using the vague "that."hoghead1 wrote:
Well, as we just discussed, that is an Aunt Fanny claim on your part. If that is what you hold, you are going to have to reject just about every book on the planet
Your continuation tells me that you think I am claiming that because there are errors in a book then the entire book is useless, and by extrapolation, all history is indeed bunk. The error is in your transferring my objection to "a divinely inspired" work to any work. If a work is divinely inspired, and a receptacle for humans to extract truth, yet has errors in it, we cannot possibly say with any certainty that what we mine is truth or falsehood. This is common sense and I wish Aunt Fanny would go back to her tea and knitting and leave us to get on with our debate. Could you tell her?
Very simply: the Bible either has God's imprimatur or it doesn't. If it has errors, then God's editing is flawed. You see, there's a difference between accepting human works and accepting those sponsored by the deity.
