"Torture stake" vs. "Cross"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witness changed the word "cross" to "torture stake" and the word "crucified" to "impaled" in their New World Translation of the Bible.

This seems to be the only translation that does so.

And JW illustrations of the crucifixion depict Jesus not on the cross, but hanging from a pole, a "torture stake".

For debate: Why did their translators do this?

What theological or doctrinal clarification could this change possibly convey?

Does this change defy history, or did the Romans "impale" it's criminals as opposed to crucifying them?

Also, do these changes enchance or detract from the NWT's credibility?

[marco]

I do not mean to give the impression that I speak for God. I am giving my own opinions, based, I have to say, on what the Scriptures say. When individuals are shady at best and satanic at worst, I can't get away from the thought that they could not be representing Christ or Jehovah. We'll just have to see where the chips fall when the Great Tribulation starts.

Well you were speaking for God and you are not basing your view on Scripture, for Pius xii does not feature there. You are basing your view on the now disputed stories that suggested the Pope collaborated with the Nazis when in fact he saved many Jews by clandestine operations, allowing them into monasteries disguised as monks. I understand that this is now acknowledged by Jews. It could not have been revealed then, hence the condemnation over what seemed to be Vatican silence.

You have judged the man as Satanic and if there is even a shred of truth in what I have revealed, then such a judgment is, well, according to Scripture, which you claim to follow, very unwise, to say the least. Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged is a good piece of advice to keep in mind.

Check this out:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... usdef.html

[onewithhim]

I do not mean to give the impression that I speak for God. I am giving my own opinions, based, I have to say, on what the Scriptures say. When individuals are shady at best and satanic at worst, I can't get away from the thought that they could not be representing Christ or Jehovah. We'll just have to see where the chips fall when the Great Tribulation starts.

Well you were speaking for God and you are not basing your view on Scripture, for Pius xii does not feature there. You are basing your view on the now disputed stories that suggested the Pope collaborated with the Nazis when in fact he saved many Jews by clandestine operations, allowing them into monasteries disguised as monks. I understand that this is now acknowledged by Jews. It could not have been revealed then, hence the condemnation over what seemed to be Vatican silence.

You have judged the man as Satanic and if there is even a shred of truth in what I have revealed, then such a judgment is, well, according to Scripture, which you claim to follow, very unwise, to say the least. Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged is a good piece of advice to keep in mind.

Check this out:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... usdef.html

I checked it out. The pope is supposed to have saved 860,000 lives. Even if he did, what of the other over 10,000,000 lives that he didn't save? 5 MILLION MORE JEWS and 5 million more of other situations? Is the world really satisfied with him saving less than a million? Why did Pope Francis APOLOGIZE for the church not doing more?

Did you read "Hitler's Pope"? Have you read any of the following?

(1) And the Witnesses Were Silent by Wolfgang Gerlach
(2) Hitler and the Vatican by Peter Godman
(3) God's Politician by David Willey
(4) Fatal Silence by Robert Katz
(5) The Power and the Glory/ Inside the Dark Heart of John Paul II's Vatican by David Yallop


Or any of a slew more of reports about the Church's miserable failure to be a true Christian light to the nations? When you have done more research, we can talk.

[marco]

The pope is supposed to have saved 860,000 lives. Even if he did, what of the other over 10,000,000 lives that he didn't save?

You are in a strange argument. You accept he saved close to a million Jewish lives and instead of according him credit you point out that there were many more he did NOT save. By what miracle was the man supposed to save 10 million lives? He might as well be Hitler in your eyes.

You choose to believe all the bad stories, even though this new revelation has come out. Have you never heard that an innocent man can be crucified for sins he did not commit?

Let us hope the organisation you belong to does not voice God's opinion as its own and does not read stories with not a hint of discriminating whether they are true or false. I think there is a commandment: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. But of course on Judgment Day, one can always say: "I heard a rumour and preferred to believe it." How very, very sad.

[onewithhim]

The pope is supposed to have saved 860,000 lives. Even if he did, what of the other over 10,000,000 lives that he didn't save?

You are in a strange argument. You accept he saved close to a million Jewish lives and instead of according him credit you point out that there were many more he did NOT save. By what miracle was the man supposed to save 10 million lives? He might as well be Hitler in your eyes.

You choose to believe all the bad stories, even though this new revelation has come out. Have you never heard that an innocent man can be crucified for sins he did not commit?

Let us hope the organisation you belong to does not voice God's opinion as its own and does not read stories with not a hint of discriminating whether they are true or false. I think there is a commandment: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. But of course on Judgment Day, one can always say: "I heard a rumour and preferred to believe it." How very, very sad.

He had the power to save ALL of the lives that were lost to the Holocaust. When Hitler first began his terror, Catholic clergy all over Europe BEGGED Pius XII to stand up and loudly object to what Hitler was doing. He could have stopped Hitler in his tracks. Europe would have listened to him and would have been galvanized to resist whatever plan Hitler was trying to impose. There are sane Jews who realize this and have said so, regardless of other Jews wimping out and saying oh he did what he could. It was shown early on what the voice of a high Catholic official could do when a Bishop in Austria galvanized his parish to resist the Nazis, and his voice prevailed. You can't tell me that Hitler wouldn't have backed down if Pius had dressed Hitler down from the roof-tops.

Pius was Hitler's Pope, so I might as well compare him to Hitler. He signed a concordat with the Nazis to make sure they wouldn't bother the church. He totally wimped out and effectively signed millions of death warrants. Where was the voice of what was RIGHT? Silent. Thousands of Jews were herded right under Pius's Vatican window, the Jews hoping Pius would save them, but he said nothing and they all ended up in train cars headed for extermination camps. I could go on and on with the foul-ups of Pius XII but you can find those out by doing some research. I listed a few books that expose his chicanery.

What I'm saying is factual, and is found in books on the history of the Third Reich. Remember.....Francis admitted the failing of the Church during the Holocaust, and apologized! Maybe too little too late?

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[marco]

Pius was Hitler's Pope, so I might as well compare him to Hitler.

You can do whatever you wish that accords with your beliefs. You were told that the Dutch Catholic Church did what you think the Pope should have done - with disastrous consequences. It is naïve to suppose that Papal intervention in German affairs would have stopped the war and perhaps prevented Pearl Harbour, the bombs falling on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and, who knows, stopped the Gulf war and 9/11, Such a pity Pius didn't foresee all this. You do know that Catholic priests were sent to concentration camps too, and killed.

As for helping Hitler, I understand that it was the policy of JWs to refuse to fight for their country, thus letting 10 million to die and doing nothing (like Pius). We all share some of the blame perhaps. Those who were not against Hitler were for him. Jesus said something similar, but I gather the words of Christ can be ignored when they don't suit our purposes. Scripture's a great thing when it falls in line with our own beliefs; a nuisance when it doesn't.

[Monta]

[Replying to onewithhim]

"He had the power to save ALL of the lives that were lost to the Holocaust."

Same way as Christians and their leaders had power to stop war on
Palestine. Why didn't they do it.

[marco]

[Replying to onewithhim]

"He had the power to save ALL of the lives that were lost to the Holocaust."

Same way as Christians and their leaders had power to stop war on
Palestine. Why didn't they do it.

Yes, you are right Monta.

And when we take the cross away from Christ and pierce him with a stake, in the name of our new "truth", we end up throwing away all the good he spoke, such as "don't judge others", "be kind to your neighbour" and the dangers of an idle tongue. Instead, we live by heartless rules, and forget that Christ told the Pharisees not to do this.

[onewithhim]

Pius was Hitler's Pope, so I might as well compare him to Hitler.

You can do whatever you wish that accords with your beliefs. You were told that the Dutch Catholic Church did what you think the Pope should have done - with disastrous consequences. It is naïve to suppose that Papal intervention in German affairs would have stopped the war and perhaps prevented Pearl Harbour, the bombs falling on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and, who knows, stopped the Gulf war and 9/11, Such a pity Pius didn't foresee all this. You do know that Catholic priests were sent to concentration camps too, and killed.

As for helping Hitler, I understand that it was the policy of JWs to refuse to fight for their country, thus letting 10 million to die and doing nothing (like Pius). We all share some of the blame perhaps. Those who were not against Hitler were for him. Jesus said something similar, but I gather the words of Christ can be ignored when they don't suit our purposes. Scripture's a great thing when it falls in line with our own beliefs; a nuisance when it doesn't.

Yes you are absolutely right. All that happened in WWII could have been prevented, and you could see this if you read up on everything leading to the two World Wars. The churches could have been teaching their flocks what Jesus said about loving our enemies, and the world would have been a different place. But they did not. They supported wars and even helped to start them and keep them going.

Yes I know that priests were sent to the camps and many were killed. Much more reason for Pius to object! But no. No objection. And did YOU know that the priests were standing up individually, on their own, without their Church having their backs?

You say JWs refused to fight and therefore helped with the extermination of 11 million people? How do you figure that? JWs refused to fight FOR HITLER, thereby having nothing to do with anyone's death. If all of Germany had taken the stand that JWs did, Hitler wouldn't have had a chance. It can also be said that JWs in Germany never took the life of one American. Can the Catholics, the Lutherans, and the other participants in Hitler's armies say that? (Did you also know that JWs were incarcerated and killed? Many were shot or beheaded.)

Indeed, the fact that false religion, the churches of Christendom in particular, are responsible for all the wars in the last 2,000 years is referred to by God when he indicates to John what Babylon the Great is guilty of:

"Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth." (Rev.18:24)


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

"He had the power to save ALL of the lives that were lost to the Holocaust."

Same way as Christians and their leaders had power to stop war on
Palestine. Why didn't they do it.

Because they're all looking out for the own butts, scared of losing their hold on power and wealth. They're not about truth and light. They're all about what's in it for them.

.

[marco]

Yes you are absolutely right. All that happened in WWII could have been prevented, and you could see this if you read up on everything leading to the two World Wars.

All man's follies are preventable. I don't agree that the Pope could have prevented the wars. God had more power, and didn't prevent them. Are you going to fulminate against Jehovah?

Had the Pope openly opposed, the near million Jews he saved would have died. His word would have had no power with Hitler or Mussolini, and he knew it; so he had to work in secret. Were he anti-Semitic he would not have saved all those lives by supplying false baptismal certificates or allowing Jews into monasteries. By his wise silence he provided havens of escape. Criticise that as much as you want but there are two sides. You illustrate this by saying that JWs refused to fight against Hitler BUT on the other hand, some in Germany refused to fight for him. There is good and bad depending on where you sit. It is best NOT to pass any judgment. Incidentally, I have "read up" on both world wars.

Indeed, the fact that false religion, the churches of Christendom in particular, are responsible for all the wars in the last 2,000 years is referred to by God when he indicates to John what Babylon the Great is guilty of:

"Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth." (Rev.18:24)

Let's not call John whoever-he-was, God. And let us not regard your interpretation of that odd text definitive. It is very wise after the event.

We have strayed from the cross and ironically illustrated that, when we do, we get caught up in prejudices. Perhaps having a little crucifix to remind us is not such a bad thing after all. Go well.