Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 49 by 2timothy316] Good Grief!!!!!! You accuse me of leading the text and you engage in that bit of apologetic acrobatic stunt.

You believe the Bible is unreliable and rely on your own understanding, so I'm not surprised by your reaction. The acrobatic stunt is announcing predestination and then cherry picking a scripture. Meanwhile excluding the rest of the book. I don't do that. Also, I can't accuse someone who has already admitted that they do it. Now it's just something to expect. Just like you can keep expecting me to use the whole Bible to explain the Bible.

One might say that your heart has been hardened to the Bible as unreliable and my explanations are hardening it more. Now who's doing the hardening? You? Me? Or the Bible? Your heart was already hardened toward the Bible as unreliable right? Did God make you that way? Of course He didn't. Yet can it be said that your heart is becoming more hardened toward the Bible because of God? Well, if one accepts the Bible as God's Word, then the answer is yes.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 51 by 2timothy316] Look at this text.

Deuteronomy 20:16-18New International Version (NIV)

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them"the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites"as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

Did God order the ethnic cleansing of the promised land?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 51 by 2timothy316] Look at this text.

Deuteronomy 20:16-18New International Version (NIV)

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them"the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites"as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

Did God order the ethnic cleansing of the promised land?

Read this text,

If you approach a city to fight against it, you should also announce to it terms of peace." Deuteronomy 20:10.

Now read this text,

"There was no city that made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites inhabiting Gibe-on. They conquered all the others by war." Joshua 11:19

Jehovah knew Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites wouldn't accept peaceful terms before Joshua would offer. But Joshua was still under command to offer it anyway. Once again you're assuming that God made them evil, kept them wicked and you're wrong. They made their hearts harder just as you're doing toward the following scripture every time you read it. "When under trial, let no one say: I am being tried by God. For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." James 1:13. Do you resent that scripture more now than the first time you heard it? How do you feel in your heart when you read it? Joy or frustration? Can you not see the attitude of the Canaanites is being played out in your own heart with concern toward parts of the Bible?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 53 by 2timothy316] Read just a little further.

Deuteronomy 20:10-16New International Version (NIV) and

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

[postroad]

Can anyone doubt that a God described in these texts is also capable of torturing individuals for eternity?

[ttruscott]

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

No, its no different from arguing against torture in prison.

Not even that, since even if one argues someone should be tortured in prison, that would only last for as long as their life, sooner or later they would die and the torture would stop.

No person who suffers a righteous judgement against his crimes is being tortured no matter how he feels about the pain involved.

Eternal life was probably not given to increase the time of their suffering but as a corollary to the increased life with YHWH in the heavenly marriage.

The supposition that a mortal spirit will degrade even if made immortal speaks to the suggestion that we can have eternal life in heaven only if all life is eternal and shortening the suffering of the damned would be to shorten the time HE has with HIS faithful until heaven is empty and it must start all over again. Otherwise, if it does not necessarily have to be all eternal or none, it would be as you suggest, one group eternal and one group annihilated. For me the preponderance of probability lies on the side of all spirits being eternal but I don't worry about it too much - whatever the truth is, it will be in the absolute best interests of HIS creation and especially fulfilled in HIS sinful elect.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness] I have studied the Bible extensively, some would say obsessively and in my opinion Jesus did teach an eternal suffering in hell for those who did not accept him. Would you still accept him even if he had taught such a concept?

How could he teach such a blasphemous thing? I have commented on those supposed teachings in a priior post, here on this thread, and the points I brought out are compelling....unless one didn't bother to read them.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is not a story that is literally true. It is a fable that is meant to make a point. Nothing in the parable is literal. Even a cursory reading of it will show you that. It is the only place in the Bible that anyone says that a person can be conscious in "Hades"---which is the GRAVE. We know that the rest of the Bible teaches that no one is conscious when they are dead (Eccles.9:5), so someone looking up to heaven from their grave is not actually possible.

Your reading of the Bible really must be a bit deeper for you to see what Jesus is saying about Hades and Gehenna. In most versions these Greek words are not distinguished between, and they have different meanings.

I would not worship a God that tortured people forever in a literal fire.


.

[myth-one.com]

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Your "understanding" comes from what you are being taught -- not what is in the Bible.

The Bible says the wages of sin is death.

And that penalty of death is everlasting. They will never live again.

If the wages of sin is everlasting torture in the lake of fire, then Jesus did not pay the wages for our sins!

Everyone will have the opportunity to know and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No humans have been cast into the lake of fire to date.

All who have died are resting in their graves.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 7 by Wootah]

Wootah wrote: So what parts of what I said can you agree with?

None of it. If I answered any further I would just be repeating what Jehovah's Witness
said in post 8 and what Divine Insight said in post 7.

The Bible, as it was originally written, in Hebrew and Greek, IS abundantly clear as to what "Hell" is. I thought I explained why there is the confusion that there is. E.g., the KJV translators took THREE GREEK WORDS and rendered them ALL as "Hell." They do not mean the same thing, and it takes intense study to realize this. Most people don't take the time to figure out what each Greek word means.

Hades
Gehenna
Tartarus

"Hades" turns out to be the common GRAVE of mankind. No fire at all.
"Gehenna" is SYMBOLIC for total annihilation
"Tartarus" is a debased spiritual state


People through the ages have believed in a literal FIRE because the clergy has told them it is real. The common person couldn't even read the Bible for a long time until it was made available through the printing press, around 1455, and then through the efforts of men like Tyndale who were burned at the stake for translating the Bible. Why did the clergy teach such a thing? How about to keep people under their control through fear?


.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 57 by onewithhim]
Your points are valid concerning death and the grave. But remember that both the righteous and the reprobate are resurected. What would be the point of resurrecting someone and sending them back to the grave?

Revelation 20:10New International Version (NIV)

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 14:9-11New International Version (NIV)

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of Gods fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

. Do you really think that a God who will allow the following to happen to people while they are alive and not allow them to die can not torture resurected humans for eternity and never let them die?

Revelation 9:1-6New International Version (NIV)

9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.