Jehovah's Witnesses: Jesus is the Creator

[Faber]

Job 9:8
Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea. (NASB)

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone (NASB)

God "alone" is the Creator and yet the Jehovah's Witnesses affirm that the Lord Jesus shared in the creation.
Insight on the Scriptures: Not a co-Creator. The Sons share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9) Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures."Mt 19:4-6; see CREATION. (Volume 2, Jesus Christ)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002451

Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Lord Jesus is God despite the fact that He shared in the creation when the Bible teaches that God "alone" did it?

[polonius]

brianbbs67 posted:

I will let JW answer for himself. But, 104:5 He established the earth on its foundations, so that it shall never totter. JPS

Doesn't mean flat, just fixed to its place.

RESPONSE: JW has already answered:

It doesn't have to be but it *is*, the evidence to support this is that the bible says all scripture is inspired of God and God doesn't make mistakes.

But evidently God did make a mistake!!! Alternately you have to believe that the sun revolves around the earth because the Bible says so.

Psalm 104 King James Version (KJV)

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.


1633 Papal condemnation of Galileo

have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine"which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures"that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... ation.html

[brianbbs67]

brianbbs67 posted:

I will let JW answer for himself. But, 104:5 He established the earth on its foundations, so that it shall never totter. JPS

Doesn't mean flat, just fixed to its place.

RESPONSE: JW has already answered:

It doesn't have to be but it *is*, the evidence to support this is that the bible says all scripture is inspired of God and God doesn't make mistakes.

But evidently God did make a mistake!!! Alternately you have to believe that the sun revolves around the earth because the Bible says so.

Psalm 104 King James Version (KJV)

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.


1633 Papal condemnation of Galileo

have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine"which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures"that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... ation.html

I know of Galileo's trials. The church was wrong. The scripture isn't. Fixed in position does not exclude movement. If the earch was not fixed in its Orbit(position in space), we would not be having this discussion.

[polonius]

Brianbbs67 posted:

I know of Galileo's trials. The church was wrong. The scripture isn't. Fixed in position does not exclude movement. If the earth was not fixed in its Orbit (position in space), we would not be having this discussion.

RESPONSE: Oh come now! A fixed position is by definition immovable just like God said in a number of scriptures about the earth!

Merriam Webster and other dictionarys disagrees with your misinterpretation of fixed
Merriam Webster definition of fixed: securely placed or fastened : STATIONARY IMMOBILE,

Examples of error in God breathed scripture:

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."

Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."

Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."

Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."

Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."


Question: Would you describe yourself as a fundamentalist?

[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Let's see you do that.

Do what? What are you asking if me?
viewtopic.php?t=3168

[polonius]

RESPONSE: Let's see you do that.

Do what? What are you asking if me?
viewtopic.php?t=3168

RESPONSE:

polonius.advice wrote in post 46:


Are you saying that because it in the "canon' it has to be true?


It doesn't have to be but it *is*, the evidence to support this is that the bible says all scripture is inspired of God and God doesn't make mistakes. Marys claim is part of the bible (scripture) ergo the bible is true ; here is my supporting scripture 2 Tim 3:16.

That is unless you first want me to first prove the bible is true?
viewtopic.php?t=3168


JW

[polonius]

JW posted:

It doesn't have to be but it *is*, the evidence to support this is that the bible says all scripture is inspired of God and God doesn't make mistakes. Marys claim is part of the bible (scripture) ergo the bible is true ; here is my supporting scripture 2 Tim 3:16.

RESPONSE: Lets take a look at what JWs claims.

1. The bible says all scripture is inspired of God and God doesn't make mistakes.
We have already demonstrated that the God breathed bible claims that the earth cannot be moved.

2. We are then told that Mary claimed she was a virgin. Actually, there is no real evidence that Mary ever made such a statement. Its found in an unsigned gospel from 80 AD which Papias (135 AD) claimed was written by Matthew and in which Matthew tried to apply the statement in Isaiah 7:14 to be a prophecy of Jesus virgin birth. This scripture used the word almah which is an unmarried woman virgin or not.

Correctly translated it reads in the World Council of Churches New Revised Standard Version Bible:

Isaiah 7:14 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.

(In fairness to the writer of Matthew, this was mistranslated as virgin in the Septuagint Bible he used).

Except in the nativity narratives, it is not claimed that Jesus had a virgin birth.

[polonius]

Although the Pastorals are written under Paul's name, they are different from his other epistles, and since the 1700s scholars have increasingly seen them as the work of an unknown student of Paul's doctrine.[2]They are speculated to have been written between 90 and 140.[2] They do not address Paul's common themes, such as the believers' unity with Christ,[1] and they reflect a church hierarchy that is more organized and defined than the church was in Paul's time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_Timothy

My friend Ralph has decided to write a new edition of the Bible. He begins with the claim that all his scripture is God breathed.

Just like the writer of II Timothy, should we believe Ralphs claim in spite of the errors he makes?

[JehovahsWitness]

Although the Pastorals are written under Paul's name, they are different from his other epistles, and since the 1700s scholars have increasingly seen them as the work of an unknown student of Paul's doctrine.[2]They are speculated to have been written between 90 and 140.[2] They do not address Paul's common themes, such as the believers' unity with Christ,[1] and they reflect a church hierarchy that is more organized and defined than the church was in Paul's time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_Timothy

My friend Ralph has decided to write a new edition of the Bible. He begins with the claim that all his scripture is God breathed.

Just like the writer of II Timothy, should we believe Ralphs claim in spite of the errors he makes?

Irrelevant.

So what? They could have been written by Michelle Obama last month the point is they are part of the bible canon which is what is under discussion.

[polonius]

Although the Pastorals are written under Paul's name, they are different from his other epistles, and since the 1700s scholars have increasingly seen them as the work of an unknown student of Paul's doctrine.[2]They are speculated to have been written between 90 and 140.[2] They do not address Paul's common themes, such as the believers' unity with Christ,[1] and they reflect a church hierarchy that is more organized and defined than the church was in Paul's time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_Timothy

My friend Ralph has decided to write a new edition of the Bible. He begins with the claim that all his scripture is God breathed.

Just like the writer of II Timothy, should we believe Ralphs claim in spite of the errors he makes?

Irrelevant.

So what? They could have been written by Michelle Obama last month the point is they are part of the bible canon which is what is under discussion.

RESPONSE: Not at all. What is under discussion is the supposedly inerrant nature (or the claim of "God breathed") for all scripture. This is a different topic than which books should be included in the canon of scripture.

[polonius]

Omniscience means that God is all-knowing or that He has unlimited knowledge. His infinite knowledge is what qualifies Him as sovereign ruler and judge over all things. Not only does God know everything that will happen, but He also knows all things that could have possibly happened. Nothing takes God by surprise, and no one can hide sin from Him. There are many verses in the Bible where God reveals this aspect of His nature. One such verse is 1 John 3:20: ...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.


English Standard Version
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradiction
In classical logic, a contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions. It occurs when the propositions, taken together, yield two conclusions which form the logical, usually opposite inversions of each other. Illustrating a general tendency in applied logic, Aristotle's law of noncontradiction states that "One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time."

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr9KSD ... 7533044%2f
101-Contradictions-in-Old-Testament/RK=2/RS=VLwW.w8b5kUO8_cu88rd8mm89cQ-


However,

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002178
INSPIRATION
The quality or state of being moved by or produced under the direction of a spirit from a superhuman source. When that source is Jehovah, the result is a pronouncement or writings that are truly the word of God.

The apostle Paul stated at 2 Timothy 3:16: All Scripture is inspired of God. The phrase inspired of God translates the compound Greek word the-opneu-stos, meaning, literally, God-breathed or breathed by God.

QUESTION: Does the evidence support this claim? If not, either God makes mistakes, or the Bible isn't inspired by God.