For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

I agree with you that YHWH in the heavens (the Father) is distinct and has a role distinct from the angel of YHWH (the Son). For example, the Father sends the Son, not the other way round.

Yes, but one role implies authority, the other submission to authority, does it not? See point #3 below

#3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.

Yes....

Well then the "Angel of Jehovah" cannot be equal Almighty God who submits to nothing and nobody.

That reasoning works with the God of Aristotle but not with the God of the Bible (see 1 Corinthians 1). Both Jehovah in the heavens and the angel of Jehovah share the divine name Jehovah. The name that Jehovah will share with no other.

[JehovahsWitness]

However, the angel of YHWH (the Son) is honoured with the same title YHWH as YHWH in the heavens (the Father).

You keep returning to your circular reasoning.

You claim Jehovah the Father "the angel of Jehovah" you cannot prove that by refering to the scripture(s) under contention.

[dakoski]

However, the angel of YHWH (the Son) is honoured with the same title YHWH as YHWH in the heavens (the Father).

You keep returning to your circular reasoning.

You claim Jehovah the Father "the angel of Jehovah" you cannot prove that by refering to the scripture(s) under contention.

You're arguing I'm not allowed to quote Scripture that refers to the angel of Jehovah as Jehovah. Where else am I going to show that the angel of Jehovah is Jehovah? Do you have a higher authority than the Bible for determining such questions?

[JehovahsWitness]

That reasoning works with the God of Aristotle but not with the God of the Bible (see 1 Corinthians 1).

Code: Select all

1 COR 1:1 -NWT
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sosʹthe·nes our brother

And what point are you attempting to make with this scripture?

[dakoski]

That reasoning works with the God of Aristotle but not with the God of the Bible (see 1 Corinthians 1).

Code: Select all

1 COR 1:1 -NWT
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sosʹthe·nes our brother

And what point are you attempting to make with this scripture?

1 Cor 1:18-25
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.�[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

[JehovahsWitness]

However, the angel of YHWH (the Son) is honoured with the same title YHWH as YHWH in the heavens (the Father).

You keep returning to your circular reasoning.

You claim Jehovah the Father "the angel of Jehovah" you cannot prove that by refering to the scripture(s) under contention.

You're arguing I'm not allowed to quote Scripture that refers to the angel of Jehovah as Jehovah.

No you can quote it, but quoting the scripture(s) under contention do not prove your argument they only prove that the argument exists. You have yet to do anything but repeat your interpretation over and over.

Axiom and circular reasoning isn't biblically or logically sound.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

1 Cor 1:18-25
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.�[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

What point are You attempting to make with these passages?

[dakoski]

However, the angel of YHWH (the Son) is honoured with the same title YHWH as YHWH in the heavens (the Father).

You keep returning to your circular reasoning.

You claim Jehovah the Father "the angel of Jehovah" you cannot prove that by refering to the scripture(s) under contention.

You're arguing I'm not allowed to quote Scripture that refers to the angel of Jehovah as Jehovah.

No you can quote it, but quoting the scripture(s) under contention do not prove your argument they only prove that the argument exists. You have yet to do anything but repeat your interpretation over and over.

Axiom and circular reasoning isn't biblically or logically sound.

JW

I've cited many scriptures that show the angel of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah. That's no circular reasoning, its saying I have a hypothesis that Scripture states the angel of Jehovah is Jehovah. I then search Scripture and find that in fact (as you agree) it does say that the angel of Jehovah is Jehovah. Nothing circular about that.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

When you say "called Jehovah" do you mean ....

- Given/designated that name as ones personal name by which the individual will forever identify himself as literally being Almighty God?


Or

- "accept to be addressed as"?

What I'm saying is that Jehovah in the heavens, the angel of Jehovah, [are] addressed in Scripture as Jehovah.

So? So what?! What do you think this means?

[dakoski]

1 Cor 1:18-25
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.�[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

What point are You attempting to make with these passages?

Read what I was replying to and it should help, reflect on whether your assumptions on authority and service reflect the Biblical or Aristotelian God.