A belief of the Jehovah Witnesses?

[polonius]

Garbe, Detlef (2008). Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich. University of Wisconsin Press. pp. 37, 38. ISBN 0-299-20794-3.

" In their opinion, only people who have accepted Jehovah and subsequently submit to his requirements will survive Armageddon and enter into the New World ... Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that a person confessing to worship God has to be associated with the true Christian denomination. Since they claim to be the only true religious denomination, they also claim to have the only means for salvation."

Is this a belief that all Jehovah Witnesses hold?

[onewithhim]

Jehovah's Witness

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses consider Trinitarians to be polytheist/idol-worshippers? What is the fate of those who fell into idolatry and believed in false-gods?

I believe that trinitarians are involved in a polytheistic religion, yes. But their individual fates lie only in Jehovah's hands. There may be many people who haven't had the chance to learn the Truth about God, or who have questions about their beliefs. Certainly they will have the chance to learn.



.

[onewithhim]

Jehovah's Witness

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses consider Trinitarians to be polytheist/idol-worshippers?

No, at least I dont. I dont recall reading anything of the sort in any of our literature but I haven't really done a search on the question. My understanding is that trinitarians believe in one truine god made up of three different persons.

What is the fate of those who fell into idolatry and believed in false-gods?

Emphasis MINE

Fell? Are you referring to a past event? Please clarify.


JW

Interesting. I was always under the impression that JWs/Unitarians considered it polytheism and idolatry. So what is the verdict on someone who believes in the deity of Christ? Is it merely just an incorrect interpretation or does it have more theological significance?

Polytheism/idolatry = Ascribing full Divinity to a creature or entity other than God-Almighty. Jesus Christ was not God-Almighty according to the JW's/Unitarians. So would that not make the Trinitarians who falsely deified Jesus idolators?

To answer your question (and I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses): Yes.


.

[Matthew S Islam]

Are you 100% sure the Jehovah's Witnesses/non-Trinitarians don't consider it polytheism and idolatry?

No not really. The thjng is, we don't spend a lot of time classifying what is false, we mostly just on focus and what is true. Classifying trinitarians as polytheists or idolators is not a preoccupation of ours. That Jesus is not Almighty God nor is He equal in power or position to The Father and the holy spirit is not a person is enough for us to dismiss the entire notion.

I mean do they not reference the monotheistic pasages in the OT as their foundational proof against the Trinity/deity of Christ?

We believe the foundational proof against the Trinity/deity of Christ lies in the biblical truths above, not in finding the right description of their error. Here's our library, if you want to know how we have referred to trinitariansm over the years you can search it. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/h/r1/lp-e

I personally couldn't care less about "the fifty shades of trinitarianism" or what its called.


JW

The reason why I asked was because I was curious to know if Jehovah's Witnesses believed that Trinitarian Christians will be forgiven or punished for believing in a false-god. In this context it is highly relevant to determine whether or not what they believe is merely a misinterpretation or the greatest possible sin.

I was also curious to know if JWs/Unitarians are theologically closer to Jews and Muslims as a result of this. Which of the two is worse in the sight of God: Contradicting monotheism by erronously ascribing Divinity to someone who isn't God, or having a differing interpretation of Jesus and his role as the Messiah?

[JehovahsWitness]

The reason why I asked was because I was curious to know if Jehovah's Witnesses believed that Trinitarian Christians will be forgiven or punished for believing in a false-god.

The only people we believe will be punished (with death) will be the incorrigibly wicked. Everyone else we believe will be given the opportunity to learn about the True God either in this system (by studying the bible with Jehovahs Witnesses) or in the next because God judged them as humble. Erroneous beliefs are not the bases of judgement, wickedness is. After all Satan knows exactly who the True God is but he is damned to eternal destruction.

...Which of the two is worse in the sight of God: Contradicting monotheism by erronously ascribing Divinity to someone who isn't God, or having a differing interpretation of Jesus and his role as the Messiah?

This line of thought is in my opinion a waste of time. There are a thousand ways to be wrong about things and one's time and energy is best used finding the truth and then sharing it with others rather than anaysing who is where on the scale of errors. We believe all false religion will be destroyed, and that Christendom is the most reprehensible part because it has, we believe, misrepresented Christ. Which religion is "falser" than another, that is is irrelevant. One doesnt quibble which room had the ugliest wallpaper when the house is on fire.


JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 53 by Matthew S]

Did you even bother to read my posts #51 & 52?


.

[Matthew S Islam]

JehovahsWitness"]
Matthew S"]The reason why I asked was because I was curious to know if Jehovah's Witnesses believed that Trinitarian Christians will be forgiven or punished for believing in a false-god.

The only people we believe will be punished (with death) will be the incorrigibly wicked. Everyone else we believe will be given the opportunity to learn about the True God either in this system (by studying the bible with Jehovahs Witnesses) or in the next because God judged them as humble. Erroneous beliefs are not the bases of judgement, wickedness is. After all Satan knows exactly who the True God is but he is damned to eternal destruction.

Interesting. I wasn't familiar with this aspect of JWs theology. Very different from the mainstream Christians who tell me that I need to believe in Jesus' death, burial and miraculous ascension or else I'm going to hell.

What I do find strage, however, is that God went from radically severe in the OT concerning theology/observing the law to literally the exact opposite. Religion and seeking the truth has in a sense become irrelevant and all you need to do is be a "good person".

Matthew S"]...Which of the two is worse in the sight of God: Contradicting monotheism by erronously ascribing Divinity to someone who isn't God, or having a differing interpretation of Jesus and his role as the Messiah?

This line of thought is in my opinion a waste of time. There are a thousand ways to be wrong about things and one's time and energy is best used finding the truth and then sharing it with others rather than anaysing who is where on the scale of errors. We believe all false religion will be destroyed, and that Christendom is the most reprehensible part because it has, we believe, misrepresented Christ. Which religion is "falser" than another, that is is irrelevant. One doesnt quibble which room had the ugliest wallpaper when the house is on fire.

In light of what was said above I understand where you're coming from with this statement. The paradigm I come from encourages me to be objective and make sense of the circumstances God has designed to test us with. The question is relevant when you follow it through and ask why these circumstances even exist in the first place.

[Matthew S Islam]

To answer your question (and I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses): Yes.
.

Right on. Thank you.

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses consider Trinitarians to be polytheist/idol-worshippers? What is the fate of those who fell into idolatry and believed in false-gods?
I believe that trinitarians are involved in a polytheistic religion, yes. But their individual fates lie only in Jehovah's hands. There may be many people who haven't had the chance to learn the Truth about God, or who have questions about their beliefs. Certainly they will have the chance to learn.

I'm also optimistic that most of the common people who believe Jesus is God haven't really thought their beliefs through. What's unfortunate though is the stubborness of the clergy and religious institutions. Trinitarian theology has dominated the Christian world ever since it was declared orthodox in the late 4th century. Part of the problem for many believers in Christianity is making sense of the historical dominance of this theology if it isn't true.

[Overcomer]

Matthew S wrote:

I'm also optimistic that most of the common people who believe Jesus is God haven't really thought their beliefs through. What's unfortunate though is the stubborness of the clergy and religious institutions. Trinitarian theology has dominated the Christian world ever since it was declared orthodox in the late 4th century. Part of the problem for many believers in Christianity is making sense of the historical dominance of this theology if it isn't true.

I have indeed thought through the belief that Jesus is God. In fact, I have studied it in depth. There are some 1000 verses that testify to the fact that Jesus is God, the Second Person of a Trinity. See here:

https://irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity

The Bible describes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in identical terms re: their ontology, their eternality, their omnipotence, etc. The only way that can be understood is in terms of one God who exists in three persons.

Trinitarian theology began in the first century and is evident throughout the New Testament and in the writings of the early church fathers. Here is a list of quotations attesting to this from the latter, including Ignatius (30-107 A.D.), Justin Martyr (110-165), Ireneaus (110-165), Clement of Alexandria (153-217), Tertullian (145-220), Origen (125-254), Dionysius (200-265), Cyprian (250-258), Novation (210-280), Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria (273-326) and Augustine (354-430). See here:

https://apostles-creed.org/confessional ... s-trinity/

When heretics challenged the belief in the Trinity in the fourth century, the Church took the time to spell it out so that people would not be swayed by their teachings. But belief in it existed from the time of Christ's resurrection.

Jesus HAD to be both God AND man to be able to provide salvation for us. We are all born with sin natures that we cannot change no matter how much we study the Bible, how many rules and rituals we follow, or how many good deeds we do. In the Old Testament, they sacrificed unblemished lambs (Ex. 12:5) to cover their sins. But an animal couldn't atone for the sins of humanity and those sacrifices had to be done over and over and over again. Only a human could atone for our sins, but that human had to be unblemished as the lamb was (1 Peter 1:19). In human terms, unblemished means free of sin. However, no human beings are free of sin. But Christ was because he wasn't just a man, he was God and, therefore, he was without sin (1 Peter 2:22; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15). Christ's sacrifice was once and for all (Heb. 10:1-25). If Jesus had not been God Incarnate, he could not have provided salvation for us.

I agree that it is a serious thing to misunderstand just who Jesus is. But it isn't the Christian believing in the Trinity who is making the mistake about him.

[Yahwehismywitness]

There is only one Yahweh

: Many witnesses
Deuteronomy 4:35,39 " Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 6:4 " Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]

2 Kings 19:15 " And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
1 Chronicles 17:20 " O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Psalm 86:10 " For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

Isaiah 37:16,20 " O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

John 17:3 " And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

James 2:19 " Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Acts 1:14 one accord 120 people
John 5:43 I come in my Father's name
John 10:29-30 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Meaning they believe the same and have same spirit but he is the son, And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Yahweh is creator and there is only one and for him the first commandment to love with heart soul and mind. How do we show love keep commandments. John 14:15

Faith in Jesus is what we suppose to have Revelation 14:12

[JehovahsWitness]

Interesting. I wasn't familiar with this aspect of JWs theology. Very different from the mainstream Christians who tell me that I need to believe in Jesus' death, burial and miraculous ascension or else I'm going to hell

Jehovahs Witnesses don't believe in "hell".

What I do find strage, however, is that God went from radically severe in the OT concerning theology/observing the law to literally the exact opposite.

• This thread is about Jehovahs Witness teachings and I have been on this forum long enough to know if we open it up to YHWH's personality and standards every atheist and antinreligionist from here to Beijing will be flood in with antigod propaganda (and not a few memes) explaining their take on the God of the bible. In English and Latin. Ditto for trinitarians ever eager to discuss their own dogma (I'm sure if the original poster had wanted to know about the beliefs of trinitarians he would have started a thread asking them) . This is why I am being very strict and keeping my answers on topic.

That said I recognise you were asking about the Jehovahs Witness take on trinitarians and both I and onewithim (both of us JWs) have responded as best we can. PLEASE NOTE The poster "yahwehismywitness" does NOT identify himself as a Jehovah's Witnesses

Religion and seeking the truth has in a sense become irrelevant and all you need to do is be a "good person".

Suffice it to say that we Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe Jehovah YHWH has changed or that "religion and seeking the truth" has become "become irrelevant". Indeed knowing the true God and his standards and having an accurate knowledge of his son is essential for everlasting life. People do well to find out who God really is and associate with the true religion before its too late.

JOHN 3:16

For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

The official Jehovahs Witnesses teaching is that God only has one organisation and that Jehovah's Witnesses today represent the earthly part of that it. We don't go so far as to say everyone not part of that organisation will be killed at armageddon (that decision is in Gods hands alone) but serving Jehovah with His people is what he desires for all honest hearted ones today and what we (JWs) have been commissioned to help people do.



JW

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