Are denominations beneficial?

[Peds nurse]

Colossians 3:15-"Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace."

Do all the different denominations help or hinder this verse?

[OnceConvinced]

Since when were the Jehovah's Witnesses identified as that group?

Since the spring of 1919.

they are not identified as Jesus's organised group except by JWs themselves.

And by Jehovah God who is the only one that really counts in this matter.

Please prove that Jehovah God chose your group as THE group and that it isn't anything more than just wishful thinking by the JWs.

Please note what scripture says:

Pro 12:8
A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.

If Jehovah's Witnesses were the true group chosen by god, they would be recognised as something special by other groups. There would be so much wisdom coming from this group they would be held up as something above just average Christianity. But they're not.

No, the JW's certainly can't claim to be identified as God's special group

We I we do, so obviously we can.

Well can't be taken seriously then. Talk is cheap. Self proclaimed titles are meaningless.

And Jesus was seen as a criminal, did you have a point that doesn't amount to argumentum ad populum?

So because they are shunned by the majority of Christians, then that makes them the one true group belonging to Jesus? Hardly. Like the scripture says, wisdom is obvious to all and the fruits of the spirit are what shows the true Christians. Also remember what the bible says about if your ways are pleasing to the lord? That's right, even your enemies will be at peace with you.

It was Jesus's wish that all Christians, no matter who they were be in unity. Not just some little exclusive group who thinks they are better than everyone else.

Where is the Christlike humility of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

By the way, please note that I never claimed that Jehovah's Witness is a cult. I said that the majority of Christianity sees them as such. At least from what I have seen as my time as a Christian.

[oldbadger]

Colossians 3:15-"Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace."

Do all the different denominations help or hinder this verse?

I have read that Colossians' author is unknown.
I have also read that Colossians was written circa 80-100CE?

In any event, there are said to be about 3000 differing denominations, Creeds and Churches within Christianity, some Trinitarian, Some Unitarian, so they don't help or hinder the above verse, they simply differ from it.

But then there are many differing beliefs within Islam, Buddhism and most other religions.

Everybody seems to think that they are right....

[JehovahsWitness]

No, it says "you have love for one another". It's not talking about some little exclusive group.

Regardless of the rendition, the phrase clearly indicates Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples and instructing them to have love for other disciples as a group. To indicate love for all others outside the immediate group of reference he would logically say "for others". While love for non-christians and people in general was indeed part of Jesus message, on this occasion he was highlighting the love they had for one another within their group would be an identifying mark for those outside of said group.

The King James Version renders John 13:35 as follows

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Evidently the "all men" or all people being referred to here are not Jesus disciples but those that observe Jesus disciples from the "outside" and see evidence of the love they have for {quote} "one another" {end quote}.

QUESTION: Is "love amongst yourselves" and acceptable rendition?

The greek word translated by most bibles as "one another" is allelon and that same Greek word is used in Mark 8:16 when the disciples in a boat with Jesus began arguing because they had forgotten to bring provisions for the trip, they were arguing according to the King James Version "amongst themselves" (allelon). Obviously there were no "outsiders" with them and the discussion was uniquely within the group of believers not from the group to others. Indeed "for one another" accurately expresses this idea of an action being within the boundaries of a couple or a group.

Below is a list of various bible translations which render "allelon" as "amongst yourselves/themselves" in various different passages.

Mark 8:16
KJV: among themselves, saying,

Mark 15:31
NAS: [Him] among themselves and saying,
KJV: among themselves with

Luke 4:36
NAS: and they [began] talking with one another saying,
KJV: spake among themselves

Luke 20:14
INT: reasoned among themselves saying This

John 6:43
NAS: among yourselves.

John 6:52
KJV: strove among themselves

John 13:35
INT: you have among one another

John 16:17
KJV: disciples among themselves,

John 16:19
KJV: Do ye enquire among yourselves

John 19:24
KJV: therefore among themselves

Acts 4:15
KJV: they conferred among themselves

Acts 26:31
KJV: between themselves, saying,

Acts 28:4
KJV: among themselves, No doubt

Acts 28:25
KJV: among themselves, they departed,

1 Thessalonians 5:15
KJV: both among yourselves, and to

source: http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_240.htm

In view of the above it seems that "among themselves/yourselves" is a perfectly legitimate and academically sound rendition of "allelon" and it is exclusively used to refer to an action of and within a distinct group.

CONCLUSION Both the context, various other translations and the Greek word used all indicate that in John 13:35 Jesus was speaking about the love his disciples as a group would display for each other which would serve as evidence of their discipleship to those outside of that group.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please prove that Jehovah God chose your group as THE group and that it isn't anything more than just wishful thinking by the JWs.

After you.

No, the JW's certainly can't claim to be identified as God's special group because they certainly are not.

Please prove that they "most certainly are not". and that it isn't anything more than just wishful thinking on your part. And no, for your information, the "er... well .. um... everyone says so, so it must be true" argumentum ad populum is not "proof".


JW

[OnceConvinced]

Please prove that Jehovah God chose your group as THE group and that it isn't anything more than just wishful thinking by the JWs.

After you.

I asked you to prove something first. The honourable thing would be to do so before asking another person to prove something else. Why don't you just say you can't prove it?'

Please prove that they "most certainly are not". and that it isn't anything more than just wishful thinking on your part.

Why would any type of wishful thinking come into it? The bible tells me that we can tell the true Christians by the fruits of the holy spirit. I am not seeing those fruits in you, so how can you possibly be part of God's chosen people?

Proverbs tells us that if our ways are pleasing to the lord even your enemies will be at peace with us. Yet the JW church is shunned even by fellow Christians.

Proverbs also tells us that the wise will be recognised as such. I'm only seeing Jehovah's Witnesses praising themselves for their wisdom, not anyone else.

The bible alone seems to be more than enough proof that the JW church are not God's chosen group.

But hey. I asked you to prove your statement first. It's only fair right? At least I have the bible proving my point.

And no, for our information, the "er... well .. um... everyone says so, so it must be true" argumentum ad populum is not "proof".

errr...well...ummm, is the bible proof enough? I've already given you bible references. Do I have to keep reminding you of them?

[JehovahsWitness]

I asked you to prove something first. The honourable thing would be to do so before asking another person to prove something else.

LOL ... your statement preceeded mine, the honorable thing therefore for you to do is to prove it. All *I* said was that Jesus indicated he would HAVE an identifiable group YOU are the one that claimed it was "most certainly " not Jehovahs Witnesses. A tad hasty maybe but now it is time to do the honorable thing and prove your claim.

. Yet the JW church is shunned even by fellow Christians.

Was there a part of "argumentum ad populum" is not proof, you are having a problem accepting because you do seem to repeatedly levitate to this 'the majority must be right' kind of reasoning ... anyway I'm still waiting for proof not opinion.



Over to you.


JW

ps: And no you opinion doesn't constitute proof either...

pps: The Marquess of Queensberry rules naturally apply .... lol

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 63 by JehovahsWitness]

The King James Version renders John 13:35 as follows

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Looks like all women aren't invited to the party.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 63 by JehovahsWitness]

The King James Version renders John 13:35 as follows

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Looks like all women aren't invited to the party.

Looks like....Oh never mind...!

[OnceConvinced]

I asked you to prove something first. The honourable thing would be to do so before asking another person to prove something else.

LOL ... your statement preceeded mine, the honorable thing therefore for you to do is to prove it.

I asked for proof in post 61. Before you asked for proof in post 64, which I actually gave you. So far you have not attempted to prove your statement, unlike me. I have even given bible verses to back up what I have said.

All *I* said was that Jesus indicated he would HAVE an identifiable group YOU are the one that claimed it was "most certainly " not Jehovahs Witnesses.

You said in post 41:
"No! When Jesus was on earth, he indicated that his followers would be organized into an identifiable group."

In post 55 I asked:
"Since when were the Jehovah's Witnesses identified as that group? "

With which you replied in post 59
"Since the spring of 1919."

So you are the one who claimed that JW is that group. You implied it was the JWs in post 41 and then stated that quite clearly in post 59. Now please do the honourable thing and provide proof that what you have said is true. Your avoidance will be obvious to everyone reading.

Clearly you have no proof. It really does seem like wishful thinking to me.

A tad hasty maybe but now it is time to do the honorable thing and prove your claim.

which I have attempted to do and even added in bible verses. When are you going to attempt to prove your statement?

. Yet the JW church is shunned even by fellow Christians.

Was there a part of "argumentum ad populum" is not proof, you are having a problem accepting because you do seem to repeatedly levitate to this 'the majority must be right' kind of reasoning ... anyway I'm still waiting for proof not opinion.

There is no fallacy here. The fact is that the majority of Christians reject the JW church. One would expect that the Christians would be able to identify who the true church is. They would be in the best position to identify who the true Christians would be.

Remember that it is the BIBLE that tells us that wisdom is obvious to all those around. Are you saying that the word of God has a logical fallacy in it?

Over to you.

Nope, it's time for you to start proving your claims. Other members will see here that I have attempted to support my claims. I have even given you bible verses to support them. Bible verses that show that JWs can't possibly be the chosen group of Christ.

Please do the honourable thing and prove your claim that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's chosen people. Otherwise please refrain from making such unsupported assertions.

[JehovahsWitness]

There is no fallacy here. The fact is that the majority of Christians reject the JW church.

** The majority of people refused to join Noah in the ark, the majority were wrong.

** Jehovah promised Abraham if he found even ten righteous men in Sodom and Gomorrah he would spare the whole place, evidently he did not find the majority in those towns.

** The majority of Egyptians took no heed of God's warnings through Moses, the majority where wrong again .

** According to the bible, the majority of Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, the majority were wrong.

** Jesus indicated that the majority of people would be on the road to destruction and only a few (the minority) would be on the road to life.

If being in the majority has any bearing whatsoever on religious truth, evidently God didn't get the memo.